Does the IDF target civilians?

[Mycroft]

Sorry about the thread drift. You know, I can debate when I feel like it, but I hate debating with partisan hacks. By the way Cleo, does the IDF deliberately target Palestinian civilians?

You got an answer to this question before, didn't you like it?

Here, let me repeat:

It’s their policy not to. If you want to provide evidence to the contrary, go ahead, but those websites you linked to from HRW and Amnesty International only talk about Palestinians targeting civilians.

Examples:

”Palestinian armed groups fired rockets from areas of the Gaza Strip at Israeli civilian settlements and populated areas in Israel close to the border, and carried out seven suicide bombings inside Israel and four around Israeli army checkpoints in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).”

”While in 2004 the number of Palestinian suicide bombings and similar attacks targeting civilians inside Israel dropped considerably compared to immediately preceding years, neither the Palestinian Authority nor the armed groups responsible have taken any serious steps to act against those who ordered or organized such attacks.”

”The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity.”

”Sixty-seven Israeli civilians, including eight children, were killed by Palestinian armed groups in Israel and in the Occupied Territories. Forty-seven of the victims were killed in suicide bombings, the others were killed in shooting or mortar attacks. Most of the attacks were claimed by the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of Fatah, and by the armed wing of Hamas.”

”Chana Anya Bunders, Natalia Gamril, Dana Itach, Rose Bona and Anat Darom and six other Israelis were killed on 29 January when a Palestinian man blew himself up on a bus in Jerusalem. More than 50 other people were wounded in the attack. The suicide bombing was claimed by both the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the armed wing of Hamas.”

”Tali Hatuel, who was eight months pregnant, and her four young daughters, Hila, Hadar, Roni and Meirav, aged between two and 11, were shot dead in the Gaza Strip while travelling by car near the Gush Katif settlement block where they lived. They were shot at close range by Palestinian gunmen who had opened fire on their car and caused it to career off the road.”

”On 28 June, three-year-old Afik Zahavi and 49-year-old Mordechai Yosepov were the first victims of a rocket fired by Palestinian armed groups from the Gaza Strip into the nearby Israeli city of Sderot. On 29 September, four-year-old Yuval Abebeh and two-year-old Dorit Aniso were killed by another Palestinian rocket while playing outside their relatives’ home in Sderot.”


And just so nobody loses track of your information sources:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/isrlpa9806.htm

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/isr-summary-eng

 

[Orwell]

I know perfectly well that Palestinian terrorists target Israeli civilians. Just read the Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reposts I put up. Now, does the IDF target Palestinian civilians? I know they do. Amnesty International says so, Human Rights Watch says so, other humanitarian organisations say so, my local newspaper says so...

My point all along is that both sides are guilty of a lot of crap. Both sides, Mycroft. Your inability to take a balanced approach to this is what has caused me to repeatedly call you a partisan hack.

 

[Orwell]

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/isrlpa9806.htm

Unlawful Use of Force
The Israeli army and security forces carried out numerous attacks in Palestinian areas over the course of 2004. These were most intense and extensive in the Gaza Strip, and were often carried out in a manner that failed to demonstrate that the attackers had used all feasible measures to avoid or minimize harm to civilians and their property. Human Rights Watch documented serious violations of international humanitarian law in the course of the Israel Defense Forces’ (IDF) May 2004 assault in the southern Gaza town and refugee camp of Rafah, in which over two hundred homes, along with cultivated fields, roads, and other infrastructure, were razed without regard to military necessity. Israeli forces also continued to use lethal force in an excessive or indiscriminate manner. On May 19, 2004, for instance, during the Rafah incursions, an Israeli tank and helicopter gunship fired on a crowd of demonstrators, killing nine persons, including three children. In late September 2004, Israel launched a massive incursion into the northern Gaza Strip. Around 130 Palestinians were killed, more than a quarter of them children. One thirteen-year-old girl, Imam al-Hams, was shot twenty times by an Israeli officer. Several children were killed in their classrooms in other incidents.

There were also numerous instances in the West Bank of civilians killed by indiscriminate Israeli gunfire, such as the deaths in Nablus in June 2004 of Dr. Khaled Salah, a lecturer at Najah University, and his sixteen-year-old son. Israel has failed to investigate suspicious killings and serious injuries by its security forces, including killings of children, thus continuing to foster an atmosphere of impunity.

While in 2004 the number of Palestinian suicide bombings and similar attacks targeting civilians inside Israel dropped considerably compared to immediately preceding years, neither the Palestinian Authority nor the armed groups responsible have taken any serious steps to act against those who ordered or organized such attacks. Palestinian armed groups in the Gaza Strip on numerous occasions fired so-called Qassam rockets, an inherently indiscriminate home-made weapon, at illegal Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip as well as at communities on the Israeli side of the border. Qassam rockets killed a man and a small child in the border town of Sderot in June, and in a separate incident killed two small children in the same town in September. In August 2004 gunmen apparently affiliated with the Hamas movement threw one or more grenades into a cellblock in a P.A.-run prison that housed alleged collaborators, and subsequently entered a Gaza City hospital to kill two of those who had been seriously wounded in the grenade attack. In July 2004 gunmen attempted to assassinate Palestine Legislative Council member Nabil Amr after he criticized PA President Yasir Arafat in a television appearance; Amr was gravely wounded and doctors had to amputate his leg.

 

[Mycroft]

Except your links don't support your claims. Neither of them ever say the IDF targets civilians.

 

[Orwell]

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/isr-summary-eng

The Israeli army killed more than 700 Palestinians, including some 150 children. Most were killed unlawfully — in reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas; in extrajudicial executions; and as a result of excessive use of force. Palestinian armed groups killed 109 Israelis — 67 of them civilians and including eight children — in suicide bombings, shootings and mortar attacks. Stringent restrictions imposed by the Israeli army on the movement of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories caused widespread poverty and unemployment and hindered access to health and education facilities. The Israeli army destroyed several hundred Palestinian homes, large areas of agricultural land, and infrastructure networks. Israel continued to expand illegal settlements and to build a fence/wall through the West Bank, confining Palestinians in isolated enclaves cut off from their land and essential services in nearby towns and villages. Israeli settlers increased their attacks against Palestinians and their property and against international human rights workers. Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted crimes against humanity and war crimes, including unlawful killings; extensive and wanton destruction of property; obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel; torture; and the use of Palestinians as “human shields”. The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity.

 

[Orwell]

Except your links don't support your claims. Neither of them ever say the IDF targets civilians.

That's a pretty creative interpretation of what's on those reports... But I'm not surprised, it's typical of your way of debating this subject.

 

[Mycroft]

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/isrlpa9806.htm

Nowhere in that very lengthy quote does it say the IDF targets civilians.

 

[Mycroft]

That's a pretty creative interpretation of what's on those reports... But I'm not surprised, it's typical of your way of debating this subject.

You're free to draw attention to the portion that proves me wrong.

 

[CBL4]

Here are the quotes about harming civilians:

carried out in a manner that failed to demonstrate that the attackers had used all feasible measures to avoid or minimize harm to civilians and their property.

The IDF failed to prevent harm. This is not targetting.

Most were killed unlawfully — in reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas; in extrajudicial executions; and as a result of excessive use of force.

The IDF was reckless. This is not targetting.

In other words, the IDF targets militants and does not mind if civilians die. According to AI and HRW, these actions are illegal but this still does not mean the IDF targets civilians.

If the actions were part of a war, I believe they would be legal. Since Israel has not signed a peace treaty with its neighbors, they are in a state of war which, IMO, means the actions are legal. I am not saying they are proper (some are not) but I believe they are legal.

CBL

 

[Tmy]

The IDF was reckless. This is not targetting.

CBL

Whats the difference. They know the public is going to to get killed and they do it anyway.

Ask yourself this. If the IDF is chasing a terrorist and he runs into a crowd of Israelies, would the IDF react the same than if he ran into a crowd of Palistinians? Do they hunt terrorists the same inside the Israelie boarder vs outside of it??? I dont think they do. Therefore they ARE targeting the public.

 

[Orwell]

http://www.phrusa.org/research/forensics/israel/Israel_force_2.html

SUMMARY OF FINDINGS

The PHR team found that the Israel Defense Force (IDF) has used live ammunition and rubber bullets excessively and inappropriately to control demonstrators, and that based on the high number of documented injuries to the head and thighs, soldiers appear to be shooting to inflict harm, rather than solely in self-defense.

 

[Orwell]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2102081.stm

The BBC has obtained video footage which appears to show an incident in the West Bank city of Jenin two weeks ago in which two Palestinian children were killed by Israeli tank fire.

The Israeli army has apologised for causing the deaths of six-year-old Ahmad Abu Aziz and his 13-year-old brother Jamil, but said the tank crew opened fire to deter Palestinians breaking a curfew and approaching them.

However, the footage shows a tank firing the first of two shells, at close range, at a group of civilians who are running away.

 

[Orwell]

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/05/03/isrlpa3899.htm

In its forty-eight page report, "Israel, the Occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Authority Territories: Jenin: IDF Military Operations," Human Rights Watch identified fifty-two Palestinians who were killed during the operation, of whom twenty-two were civilians. Many of the civilians were killed willfully or unlawfully. Human Rights Watch also found that the IDF used Palestinian civilians as "human shields" and used indiscriminate and excessive force during the operation.

"The abuses we documented in Jenin are extremely serious, and in some cases appear to be war crimes," said Peter Bouckaert, senior researcher at Human Rights Watch and a member of the investigative team. "Criminal investigations are needed to ascertain individual responsibility for the most serious violations. Such investigations are first and foremost the duty of the Israeli government, but the international community needs to ensure that meaningful accountability occurs."

 

[Orwell]

I can find more if you wish...

 

[Mycroft]

Whats the difference. They know the public is going to to get killed and they do it anyway.

There have been a couple of high profile killings, such as Yassin, the spiritual founder of Hamas, where the IDF took the shot despite there being civilians present. This has been parlayed into propaganda that the IDF will always shoot the terrorist despite there being civilians about. For the average terrorist, they are much more cautious.

 

[Mycroft]

I can find more if you wish...

Can you find any that say the IDF targets civilians? You havn't yet.

 

[Giz]

Do they hunt terrorists the same inside the Israelie boarder vs outside of it??? I dont think they do.

You don't think that there might be practical reasons for that?

(I imagine Israeli police might be able to drive around Tel Aviv making arrests without getting lynched or finding themselves in running gun battles within densely populated areas.)

 

[Tmy]

Can you find any that say the IDF targets civilians? You havn't yet.

What are you looking for? A notorized document? Geez ya really think theres gonna be a papertrail. And with that document it just aint true?

By the way do you think the IDF would react the same in an Isrealie neighborhood vs a Palistianian one?

 

[Tmy]

You don't think that there might be practical reasons for that?

(I imagine Israeli police might be able to drive around Tel Aviv making arrests without getting lynched or finding themselves in running gun battles within densely populated areas.)

Its impractical cause killing Isrealies would cause a serious backlash wh the IDF's bosses.

 

[Mycroft]

What are you looking for? A notorized document?

Not at all. I'm just looking for the part where it says the IDF targets civilians.

Can you point it out?