It was specifically a nationalist vision, which was not completed in 1949 simply by the establishment of some territorial control. The nation had been planned, rationally by secular thinkers, and that plan was not fulfilled by the 1949 borders. Zionism did not go away the moment Israel was created, any more than Greek nationalism went away the moment Greece became a nation-state.
True. But what "disarms" Greek Nationalists ( and Israelis etc) is exactly that; the establishment of the country that gave shape to the vision.
I am neither naive nor a fanatic Capel Dodger. I do know that the discussion of Zionism is a political one. My refusing to aknowledge the existence of zionist visions in our days constitutes a
political stance the same way I avoid using the terms Judea and Samaria.This is a political stance and not inability to grasp certain principles. I am not saying that you're implying that,I am just clarifying myself.
The extremists you mention do not restrict their arguments to security, they refer to the Land of Israel as granted to them by their god and the incorporation of it all in Israel as a religious duty. You must have noticed that during the last year or so, culminating in what went on in Gaza. These extremists are regarded as numerous enough to be courted by Likud, if not by Sharon. Many of them are living in the West Bank, a no-man's-land - not Jordanian, not Israeli, not Palestinian, a place outside the accepted international order. They are armed, and they feel enjoined by their god to breed as prolifically as possible. They get ministerial positions so that Sharon can get the Knesset votes he needs. This is more like EOKA than whatever movement wants Byzantium back (presumably the same movement that invaded Asia Minor in the 1920's, I'm not surprised they're still around, I've been known to advocate the dismemberment of Turkey myself). Yes, there are still French monarchists and Welsh nationalists, but these movements are not comparable.
Ok I agree with the descriptions above if you exclude the part about EOKA. You talk like a British now.
In the last three lines of the quote above hides the essence of the issue. You say : "Yes, there are still French monarchists and Welsh nationalists, but these movements are not comparable". What makes those example beyond any comparison? I will tell you what. Welsh and French nationalists wish to overturn an long established status-quo of two really old countries that took them ... how much time to stabilize? Do we agree on the number 300 for the years they needed in order to calm down? 300 years for nationalists to appear like national folklor. How old is Israel,Capel Dodger? How old is the Palestinian National Movement? The former was born in 1967. Cut us some slack.
It's certainly not meant to be complimentary. The so-called "ultra-orthodox" are ultra, but they aren't orthodox. Theirs is a religion of real-estate and dynasties, last seen with the Maccabees and zealots and a short-lived aberration then, disastrous for the region. They treat the Torah as a spell-book. This is not Judaism as I know it
And they don't serve their military duties either and the majority is getting annoyed with them for that, you know. I see those people as an obstacle to progress and they get on my nerves, I am not worried about them though and the reason I am not worried about them is that such groups in every country's history never succeded in changing anything of essence. It's the burden every country carries on its shoulders. Usuful burden though because it marks the way you must avoid to take.
Britain has an army but I've never heard the slogan "Britain is the Army, the Army is Britain". The IDF has always made a point of being a nation-in-arms, which ordinary nations reserve for times of crisis. It's always been something of a fiction, but it's becoming more so. The First Intifada wore down national morale because so many ordinary (dare I saw normal?) citizens experienced it and felt like an occupying army in a foreign country. That has prompted the increasing professionalism of the IDF. Professional soldiers have much less difficulty with being occupiers. It's one of the things that soldiers do - particularly the successful ones.
Do you seriously compare the British with the IDF? You would know what British Army is if you ever saw it in action next of your door. IDF is a professional army but this doesn't mean that it's the army of people of Israel since everybody is involved in IDF, or almost everybody.
Racial sterotyping or what? If they're not going to think for themselves, presumably they'll do what their politicians tell them and vote accordingly. There are at least three political parties representing Russians, at least one of them the non-Jewish Russians. And in general, the Russians are not what I would describe as "normal Israelis", they have different interests, such as higher minimum-wage. That's a lot of votes and a lot of seats, and we both know how that gains leverage under the Israeli system.
There's an election coming, which should give us more information.
Maybe they will vote for the immigrant from Morocco and the rest of the Israelis will pay Sharon's blinded policy to collect all these people for I don't know, I pressume one century.
The betrayal happened. That's what will fester. What's more, leaving it all to the god and Israel didn't stop the evacuation happening. That surely must mean that the god wants them to stop any further retreats themselves?
Capel Dodger you are exaggerating to put it politely.
Brains is good, foreign subsidy is good, high taxes and extensive government intervention is good in principle. Education is good, especially if there's plenty of crtical-thinking and history in there. Real history, not history as a tool of state. An Israeli "living with his own people undisturbed" is not possible while occupation and expansion continue. It can only be achieved when Israelis regard "their own people" as everybody that lives there.
Don't expect real history from this generation and a couple of forthecoming generations of Israelis but I hope that you don't believe in the one state solution. Come-on this naivite is for jews like Cleon that can live only if they are adored by the enemy who despises them exactly because they kiss his you know what...
Mark my words. (As if you ever would.)
Awwwww
