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2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker - Part II

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As I've said, if Sanders get the nomination and loses to Trump I'll stop posting in this site for a year.

But the same people decrying the ANYONEBUTHILLARY crowd of 2016 better all vote for Sanders when push comes to shove.

We wouldn't want Four More Years of Trump now!!
 
Venom said:
And let's be honest there's reasons to believe Warren was pressured into many of her positions from the progressive faction of Democrats, ultimately from the influence of Sanders.
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What makes you think that?
 
kellyb said:
What makes you think that?
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Was Warren for any kind of single payer before Sanders started pushing the new Medicare for All? When she was asked a question specifically about Medicare for All in Tuesday's debate it looked like she hadn't put much thought into it, not what one would expect if you were truly on board and serious.

also back in her early Senate days she put her chips into the ACA. Not much enthusiasm about any single-payer let alone a Medicare For All level system.

ETA need a diff link.
 
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Venom said:
Was Warren for any kind of single payer before Sanders started pushing the new Medicare for All? When she was asked a question specifically about Medicare for All in Tuesday's debate it looked like she hadn't put much thought into it, not what one would expect if you were truly on board and serious.

also back in her early Senate days she put her chips into the ACA. Not much enthusiasm about any single-payer let alone a Medicare For All level system.

ETA need a diff link.
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In her early days she was working for Obama.
 
kellyb said:
I mean, your evidence that her messaging sucks is...your own subjective impression?

What do you consider good messaging?
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I bet if we looked at some 2016 threads you'd find us having the same argument about Sanders vs Clinton.

As for my 'opinion' yes, but I've been interested in said messaging since long before I got involved in the JREF.

In 2007 at TAM, Skepticism and the Media, I gave a Sunday presentation on "Deciphering the Language Code".

Marketing, propaganda, narratives, George Lakoff's framing, Karl Rove's Playbook, Frank Luntz's - Words that Work, ....

So fine, dismiss it as an uninformed opinion, suit yourself.
 
Venom said:
I get the impression that Warren wants some sort of single payer but not Medicare For All, depending on how "politically acceptable" it is at the moment, as she writes in that chapter.
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If we were to more perfectly emulate a (kind of a misnomer to call it this, but whatever) "single payer" system like the UK's NHS, or Oz's Medicare, we could have a 100% universal, tax funded, "free at the point of use" system without even raising taxes at all. We already pay enough in taxes to cover everyone - we're just wasting our money on non-public hospitals engaging in price-gouging, pharma price gouging, fee for service payment schemes, etc instead of covering everyone.

So, on that front, yeah...the current senate and house bills are not the most perfect version of "single payer" possible.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I bet if we looked at some 2016 threads you'd find us having the same argument about Sanders vs Clinton.

As for my 'opinion' yes, but I've been interested in said messaging since long before I got involved in the JREF.

In 2007 at TAM, Skepticism and the Media, I gave a Sunday presentation on "Deciphering the Language Code".

Marketing, propaganda, narratives, George Lakoff's framing, Karl Rove's Playbook, Frank Luntz's - Words that Work, ....

So fine, dismiss it as an uninformed opinion, suit yourself.
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Well, again, what do you consider "good messaging"?

Can you give some examples? Who's got the best messaging among the democratic candidates, in your opinion?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Is that like Clinton's position papers on multiple topics? Great ideas but not presented in digestible bites.
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Look. If you are arguing that Republicans are generally better at messaging then I agree with you. That said, it's easy when you're not saying anything which is what I get from most Republicans. But frankly I don't think Sanders is really any better than Warren at it.
I get mad at most Democrats when they get too wonky. But even worse is the candidate who is unprepared and stumbles over answers.

Warren is much much better at it then she used to be. It's still not good enough. But I don't see a Democratic candidate who standing out better than her. Not a one. So what the hell do we do?
 
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acbytesla said:
Look. If you are arguing that Republicans are generally better at messaging then I agree with you.
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I think they say plenty of things, but their target audience eats, sleeps, and breathes hate, and are horrifyingly misinformed, on top.

It's easy to message to people with this large, exposed, pulsing lizard brain that's ravenous for more racism, sexism, and general xenophobia.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Is that like Clinton's position papers on multiple topics? Great ideas but not presented in digestible bites.
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That's a separate issue.

kellyb was responding to Venom's rhetorical question:

"Was Warren for any kind of single payer before Sanders started pushing the new Medicare for All?" as evidence that Warren was pushed left by Sanders' 2016 run.

kellyb's Warren quote from 2008, categorically demonstrates that yes, she was in favour of it long before Sanders' run.

Your separate point about Warren's messaging is more difficult to answer because you haven't given any examples of Warren's terrible messaging, and have merely asserted it.

We still want to know what you base that judgment on, not what your credentials are.
 
acbytesla said:
Look. If you are arguing that Republicans are generally better at messaging then I agree with you.

...
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I disagree.
Republicans argue on a debate level way below that of most Democrats, as do their respective pundits.
They can get away with it due to massive brand loyalty - but the flipside is that, on average - GOP voters have become unable to spot ********:
We have CEOs of phone-shopping companies on record saying that they advertise on Fox because viewers are so dumb that they will buy any trash.

It's not hard to be the best debater if you only cater to an audience already pre-disposed to you and selected for uncritical thinking.
 
kellyb said:
I think they say plenty of things, but their target audience eats, sleeps, and breathes hate, and are horrifyingly misinformed, on top.

It's easy to message to people with this large, exposed, pulsing lizard brain that's ravenous for more racism, sexism, and general xenophobia.
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I think it is a mistake to just write these people off as hateful. No one thinks of themselves as hateful. Yes, it is xenophobic. People afraid of the unknown and of change. The world is changing at breaknecking speed and their position in this world feels threatened. Just ignoring this phenomenon and dismissing how this affecting them is I believe a mistake.
 
angrysoba said:
That's a separate issue.

kellyb was responding to Venom's rhetorical question:

"Was Warren for any kind of single payer before Sanders started pushing the new Medicare for All?" as evidence that Warren was pushed left by Sanders' 2016 run.

kellyb's Warren quote from 2008, categorically demonstrates that yes, she was in favour of it long before Sanders' run.
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It doesn't refute Warren being pressured to support Medicare For All.

As Warren herself wrote in that paper it may not always be politically expedient. But she can't risk not being aligned with Bernie on this and a few other issues. If Sanders wasn't there I'd say there's a good chance she'd be pushing some lesser universal healthcare option.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I disagree.
Republicans argue on a debate level way below that of most Democrats, as do their respective pundits.
They can get away with it due to massive brand loyalty - but the flipside is that, on average - GOP voters have become unable to spot ********:
We have CEOs of phone-shopping companies on record saying that they advertise on Fox because viewers are so dumb that they will buy any trash.

It's not hard to be the best debater if you only cater to an audience already pre-disposed to you and selected for uncritical thinking.
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I mostly agree with you. But when i say Republicans are generally better when it comes to messaging, its that they know how to break it down to simple themes.
 
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