• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well yes and no.

In fact, the real reason (and the proper reason in law and in ethics) why the Marasca SC panel annulled the murder-related convictions and definitively acquitted Knox and Sollecito is this: there was simply insufficient* evidence to prove their guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

And it's crucial here to expand upon this somewhat. Firstly, the SC ruled - again correctly - that the lower convicting courts had acted unlawfully in the ways in which they'd assessed critical prosecution evidence as reliable and credible (chiefly the forensic evidence, but also important "witness" testimony, chiefly Curatolo, Quintavalle and Capezalli). And secondly, when all this "evidence" was rightfully discounted, the SC further correctly judged that no court could possibly convict Knox or Sollecito. Thirdly, the SC - once again correctly - deemed that there was no reasonable chance that there would ever exist sufficient (credible, reliable) evidence to prove the guilt of Knox and/or Sollecito in any properly-constituted court. Which is precisely why the SC entirely struck out the case.

It's not for the SC to think about things like workable narratives etc (except insomuch as they chime with the actual evidence or not). The SC, and for that matter every lower criminal court as well, should only - and MUST only - consider the question of whether the summation of the evidence, properly weighted, constitutes proof of guilt BARD.



* And again, for the avoidance of pro-guilt-commentator misrepresentation of this word "insufficient", it means - in both law and in ethics - that (in practice) unless the court can determine that the evidence shows certainty of guilt, then the court must acquit. There's literally zero difference (again, in both law and ethics) between the court finding that a) there's just not quite enough evidence of guilt to provide such certainty, and b) there's absolutely no evidence of guilt whatsoever. Exactly the same acquittal applies. And indeed, in the instance of the Marasca acquittals/annulments, the court made it very clear that it considered there to be effectively NO proper (reliable, credible) evidence of guilt, even though it was bound to acquit under "insufficient evidence"-related codes.

Wrong. You cannot appeal against witness testimony (assuming ceteris paribus there was no criminal issue such as witness tampering or intimidation).

Rubbish, it is within the remit of any court to reach the verdict it does as long as it is within the bounds of 'reasonable'. A fair and reasonable court can and did find the pair guilty as charged and this was upheld at appeal. It let the barrister have all the time she needed for maternity leave both before and after the birth. Every witness the parties wanted heard were heard. It could not have been any more fair.

You can only appeal on points of law. If a court finds a witness testimony credible or not credible that is tough titties and there is nothing you can do about it. In addition, press speculation - one of the defective reasons of the Marasca-Bruno Supreme Court - is not unlawful in Italy, thus cannot be a 'point of law'.

The Judge and Jury did find the pair guilty BARD. The final Supreme Court erred in stating there had to be 100% no doubt, reaching the defective conclusion that although it was 100% certain Knox was present during the murder and washed off the victim's blood, it still wasn't 100% proven she actually killed her.

If it had a problem with the facts found by the merits court it should have sent it back as its sole purpose is to look at points of law, not the evidence or facts themselves. Bearing in mind you cannot appeal against these.

A court cannot make findings that have not been pleaded.
 
If Guede was convicted of aggravated murder for being 'an accessory' (IOW it was deemed he did not wield the fatal blow) to the murder, in association with multiple others, then it follows that as Knox (100% definitely) and 'almost certainly' Sollecito were also present (let's face it they invented fake alibis and lied numerous times) then one does have to ask in which way Marasca-Bruno holds it i 'insufficient evidence' in their case.
 
If Guede was convicted of aggravated murder for being 'an accessory' (IOW it was deemed he did not wield the fatal blow) to the murder, in association with multiple others, then it follows that as Knox (100% definitely) and 'almost certainly' Sollecito were also present (let's face it they invented fake alibis and lied numerous times) then one does have to ask in which way Marasca-Bruno holds it i 'insufficient evidence' in their case.
 
The Judge and Jury did find the pair guilty BARD. The final Supreme Court erred in stating there had to be 100% no doubt, reaching the defective conclusion that although it was 100% certain Knox was present during the murder and washed off the victim's blood, it still wasn't 100% proven she actually killed her.

You continue to ignore Section 6.2 of the M/B report which has been quoted from at length here. You continue to pound away, undeterred that Section 9.4 says that even if that claim you continue to make had been true.....

.... all it does is put the pair in another part of the cottage at a later time. You never address this when you put your claims on auto-repeat.
 
Vixen - each time you make your bogus claim, you need also to deal with:

1) Exactly when did that happen, choosing a time between Nov 1 at 6:50 pm to Nov 2 at 4:50 am?

2) Address that claim in the context of what Marasca-Bruno wrote in section 6.2...​
....as per the post at the top of this page.

Take your time.
 
If Guede was convicted of aggravated murder for being 'an accessory' (IOW it was deemed he did not wield the fatal blow) to the murder, in association with multiple others, then it follows that as Knox (100% definitely) and 'almost certainly' Sollecito were also present (let's face it they invented fake alibis and lied numerous times) then one does have to ask in which way Marasca-Bruno holds it i 'insufficient evidence' in their case.

If Galileo was convicted of the heretical view of 'heliocentrism' (IOW it was deemed everything revolved around the earth every 24 hours) then one does have to ask how we could've 'sent a rover to Mars' given Mars is traversing the Earth's sky at 1/20th the speed of light and yet our fastest spacecraft cannot even reach a speed of 1/5000th the speed of light.
 
Vixen - each time you make your bogus claim, you need also to deal with:

1) Exactly when did that happen, choosing a time between Nov 1 at 6:50 pm to Nov 2 at 4:50 am?

2) Address that claim in the context of what Marasca-Bruno wrote in section 6.2...​
....as per the post at the top of this page.

Take your time.

There is no legal requirement to state exact time of death for a fair murder conviction to occur. Since murderers never admit to their guilt, it is only in some cases exact time of murder is known.

As to part two, so if the pair washed blood from their hands after the murder 'in another part of the cottage' why didn't they fetch help for Mez straight away or help personally. You mean to say they just noticed wet blood on their hands and feet and simply washed it off, without saying a word to anyone? Not even when questioned by the police?
 
Last edited:
Meredith's Italian phone

This is currently being discussed on YouTube with Rag. I'm not techy with mobile phones (I don't even own one) so I need to know the status of Meredith's Italian phone when the call was made (3 seconds duration).

02.11.2007 12:11:02 3484673590 Amanda Knox 3484673711 Meredith Kercher (I) 0 : 03 outgoing call Via dell'Aquila n.5 - Torre dell'Aquedotto, Sett.3

Any takers?

Hoots
 
There is no legal requirement to state exact time of death for a fair murder conviction to occur. Since murderers never admit to their guilt, it is only in some cases exact time of murder is known.
Wow. You actually made an attempt. Thanks, at least, for that.

But you should actually try to read Section 6.2, and follow it's argument. Nowhere does it say that it is a legal requirement, so thanks for the strawman. It says that it is required in this case to be able to evaluate an alibi. It also makes oblique mention, implication really, that the failure of investigativing police (Mignini) to take body temperature hopelessly compromised the investigation.

But please at least address the issues in 6.2, rather than just make stuff up.

As to part two, so if the pair washed blood from their hands after the murder 'in another part of the cottage' why didn't they fetch help for Mez straight away or help personally. You mean to say they just noticed wet blood on their hands and feet and simply washed it off, without saying a word to anyone? Not even when questioned by the police?

Because the victim had been behind a locked door.

But once again, you fail to address the "even if true" part of the argument. The decisive fact was that no trace of either had been found in the murderroom. It is that fact which drives the acquittal, not the circular reasoning you engage in.

Please familiarize yourself with the points that the M/B report lays out in 6.2 and 9.4.

But thank you for at least, at long last, giving it a go. It proves, for one thing, that you have no timeline for the killing which includes AK and/or RS.

In short, you neglected to answer each question, substituting a word salad instead.
 
Last edited:
Wrong. You cannot appeal against witness testimony (assuming ceteris paribus there was no criminal issue such as witness tampering or intimidation).

Rubbish, it is within the remit of any court to reach the verdict it does as long as it is within the bounds of 'reasonable'. A fair and reasonable court can and did find the pair guilty as charged and this was upheld at appeal. It let the barrister have all the time she needed for maternity leave both before and after the birth. Every witness the parties wanted heard were heard. It could not have been any more fair.

You can only appeal on points of law. If a court finds a witness testimony credible or not credible that is tough titties and there is nothing you can do about it. In addition, press speculation - one of the defective reasons of the Marasca-Bruno Supreme Court - is not unlawful in Italy, thus cannot be a 'point of law'.

The Judge and Jury did find the pair guilty BARD. The final Supreme Court erred in stating there had to be 100% no doubt, reaching the defective conclusion that although it was 100% certain Knox was present during the murder and washed off the victim's blood, it still wasn't 100% proven she actually killed her.

If it had a problem with the facts found by the merits court it should have sent it back as its sole purpose is to look at points of law, not the evidence or facts themselves. Bearing in mind you cannot appeal against these.

A court cannot make findings that have not been pleaded.



Yeah..... you have no idea what you're talking about. Once again.

Perhaps you could start educating yourself by researching the actual points of law upon which the Marasca SC panel based its annulments. Not your invented sub-GCSE-level "law" interpretation, but real, actual law. And in this case, Italian law (though exactly the same parameters apply in, say, England and the US).

It's really no use you trying to keep parrotting the same old nonsense here. Too many well-informed commentators know you're embarrassingly wrong. I know it probably continues to go down a storm in the near-empty echo chambers of places like True Malice Towards Amanda Knox (oh and that other bloke, erm, Sollecito was it?). But not, I'm afraid, in any forum where there's actually open, well-informed debate, Vixen.
 
If Guede was convicted of aggravated murder for being 'an accessory' (IOW it was deemed he did not wield the fatal blow) to the murder, in association with multiple others, then it follows that as Knox (100% definitely) and 'almost certainly' Sollecito were also present (let's face it they invented fake alibis and lied numerous times) then one does have to ask in which way Marasca-Bruno holds it i 'insufficient evidence' in their case.



No. It doesn't "follow", Vixen.

Again, educate yourself on the law. On this particular matter, please pay special attention on the right to representation in a trial process, and on whether or not a verdict in the trial of one person, tried separately, can feed through unchallenged into the trial of a second person(s) (hint for you: it cannot).

You're so ignorant it's laughable.
 
This is currently being discussed on YouTube with Rag. I'm not techy with mobile phones (I don't even own one) so I need to know the status of Meredith's Italian phone when the call was made (3 seconds duration).

02.11.2007 12:11:02 3484673590 Amanda Knox 3484673711 Meredith Kercher (I) 0 : 03 outgoing call Via dell'Aquila n.5 - Torre dell'Aquedotto, Sett.3

Any takers?

Hoots


The "3 seconds" stuff (and similar) is subject to gross misinterpretation and misunderstanding by pro-guilt commentators and the convicting lower courts alike.

The call durations given in the logs refer explicitly and solely to the CONNECTED times. That is to say, the time elapsed after a connection to an open line was made. And in turn, that is to say it does not include the time during which the called party's phone was ringing.

See, the ignorant pro-guilt commentators and convicting courts seem to be under the impression that if, say, a call is listed in the records as being of a 3-second duration, this somehow means that Knox (in your case above) called Kercher's Italian phone, let it ring for just three seconds, then hung up. In other words, they interpret it as evidence that Knox was just going through the motions of calling Kercher, without even giving the phone enough chance to be answered (the follow-on "conclusion" being that Knox knew Kercher was dead, but wanted to try to establish a claim that she'd been calling Kercher out of concern etc).

But, as I said, the 3 seconds strictly refers to the time of connection of the call. And in the case of Kercher's Italian phone, this means the time of connection to the Italian voicemail message on Kercher's Italian phone. So what actually happened was that Knox called Kercher's Italian phone, found it diverted to voicemail, and had 3 seconds to realise that this was what was happening before hanging up (Knox had already tried several times to reach Kercher on this number, and there was little point in her leaving voicemail messages at this point, so it was entirely reasonable for Knox to terminate the call after 3 seconds of the voicemail message).

And to answer your further question, Kercher's Italian phone was actually switched OFF from around 10pm on 1st November until the Postal Police turned it on around 12pm (lunchtime) on 2nd November. So in fact Kercher's Italian phone was not ringing at all when it was dialled - it was diverting straight to voicemail. A fact which further negates the incorrect and misleading "conclusion" attempted by pro-guilt commentators.

Kercher's Italian phone was switched off on the night of the murder. By someone. And Kercher's English phone was left switched on on the night of the murder. However, the strange short-code mis-dialling on Kercher's English phone at around 10pm on the night of the murder tends to suggest that someone was fiddling with the phone trying to do something with it. And it's hardly unreasonable to suggest that this someone was trying to turn off the English phone, but was perhaps unfamiliar with the handset and the English language menus and screen displays.

My long-held supposition is that Guede, having killed Kercher, took both her phones, with the intention of turning both of them off before he left the cottage (he didn't want the phones ringing when they were in his possession after he left the cottage, for obvious reasons). He managed to turn off the Italian one easily, but tried and failed to turn off the English one (doing those strange aborted mis-dials in the process). He therefore had no choice but to leave the English one switched on. And then, when that English phone suddenly sounded and lit up with the incoming MMS message, almost certainly while Guede was walking along the road round the outside of the old city wall near to Parc Sant'Angelo, his fears about being caught out by the phones intensified and he decided to simply ditch both phones. He hurled them into what he thought was scrubby hillside, but what was in fact the neatly-tended garden of Sig.a Lara.
 
Filomena has a sub 3 second duration call to Meredith as well but it's ignored by guilters because. All the technical details surrounding this case have been exhaustively discussed in this thread, multiple times.
 
This is currently being discussed on YouTube with Rag. I'm not techy with mobile phones (I don't even own one) so I need to know the status of Meredith's Italian phone when the call was made (3 seconds duration).

02.11.2007 12:11:02 3484673590 Amanda Knox 3484673711 Meredith Kercher (I) 0 : 03 outgoing call Via dell'Aquila n.5 - Torre dell'Aquedotto, Sett.3

Any takers?

Hoots

This is from Mrs Lana's deposition dated Nov 2nd, 2007 at 11:50.

L'anno 2007, addì 02 del mese di novembre, alle ore 11.50, in Perugia, nei locali del Compartimento della Polizia Postale e delle Comunicazioni per l'Umbria.
Innanzi al sottoscritto Ufficiale di P.G. Commissario Capo Filippo Bartolozzi, appartenente all'Ufficio in epigrafe indicato, è presente la persona in oggettogeneralizzata che, in relazione agli accertamenti effettuati da quest'ufficio, sull'utenza cellulare 3484673711, risponde alle seguenti domande.
Domanda: "Conosce l'utenza utelefonica 3484673711?"
Risposta: No, non la conosco".
Domanda :" Conosce tale ROMANELLI Filomena di anni 28?" .
Risposta: No,

Looks like Meredith Kercher's Italian phone was already in the hands of the postal police at that time... and apparently turned off, at least that would explain the duration of 3 seconds...
 
Which part of it is 'slander'?

Cannot be slander if it is true or 'fair comment'.

You can prove it's true that all the experts and judges you have accused of being 'bent' are, indeed, dishonest, and that it was the mafia, the Masons, and the US State Dept. that forced the wrongful acquittals by Hellmann, Marasca and Boninsegna? You can prove that Knox and Sollecito killed Kercher? If so, then why have you not contacted the Italian police and given them this important evidence?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom