Cont: Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

[Vixen]

Wrong! It's amazing how you remainers consistently jump to the wrong conclusions.

I want MPs and others who are not liars or incompetents.

Surely this is an oxymoron.

 

[Vixen]

Can't you read? Just because you have a poor memory, and expect me to do a lot of unnecessary work to aid your memory it doesn't alter the fact that I posted my reasons, which were perfectly rational in my opinion. If I were to do the work you'd most likely forget my reasons again.

Is this a new debating tactic on a supposedly critical thinking forum? "I've forgotten what you wrote some months ago, so rather than bother to refresh my memory, I'm going to assume that what you wrote was irrational." Have things really sunk that low?

Don't be rude to Darat.

 

[Lothian]

I want MPs and others who are not liars or incompetents.

Which of these was the advice to the Queen to proogue Parliament?

 

[Vixen]

And the Dunn case demonstrates how little the Trump regime thinks of BoJo's Britain.

Were this forum to be Little Britain, ceptimus most likely could play the 'Only Brexiteer in the Village'.

 

[Vixen]

Can I introduce the topic of what should happen to EU citizens currently residing in the UK (and conversely, Brits in the EU) after Brexit?

Fascinating read here, from the GRAUNIAD:

There is already concern from immigration lawyers about the upbeat slanting of statistics. The Home Office likes to say that almost 1.5 million people have been granted “some form of status”, but this masks the fact that currently about 40% are getting the inferior pre-settled status, which obliges them to adhere to strict rules on continuous residence for up to a further five years or risk getting pushed out of the system.

Even the Conservative and arch Brexiter MEP Daniel Hannan has voiced concern on Twitter, warning that he has had cases of EU nationals in his south-east England constituency being denied settled status despite living in the UK for years. “This is a breach of the assurances I and others gave during the referendum.” He called on Patel “to sort this out … before we end up with another Windrush scandal”.

Given there are apx 3.5 million (government estimate, but believed much higher) EU citizens int he UK but 1.4m Brits in the EU it does look rather lopsided.

Nonetheless, after Priti Patel's recent outburst about citizenship ending on 31 Oct 2019 (wrongly) you wonder what the likes of her and her 'law-and-order' brigade plan to do about it. Perhaps a UK version of kristallnacht by the new far right, who call themselves 'football lads' to get round the ban on extremist groups.

 

[bam]

The almost comical ignorance and ineptness of hard brexiters like ceptimus certainly has been vital to stringing the process out to this point but I'm not sure that their input should be viewed as a contribution of any sort. They've provided nothing but lies and childish demands before trying to circumvent the law to get their way whenever saner heads prevailed. I don't think history will view their efforts with much kindness when this finally gets sorted out.

I hope we eventually see something like, "Despite the efforts put forth by a very vocal minority coalition the Brexit crisis was narrowly averted. Brexit was inspired by Russian destabilization efforts (^see MAGA, Trump) and led by corporate interests using targeted media to mislead and use ill-informed and disenfranchised voters to further their own goals. Numerous safeguards and programs were put in place worldwide to prevent any similar interference by foreign governments, corporate interests or special interest groups in the wake of Brexit and Trump's impeachment. Interestingly, Russia's efforts to target and destabilize democracies eventually produced the opposite effect with closer bonds between nations around the world."

 

[Vixen]

Some interesting letters in the GRAUNIAD about EU citizens being forced to 'apply' to stay in the UK.

Somewhat naively she assumed that her settled status would be confirmed once she inputted her national insurance number. Alas no. Additional documentation is required demonstrating residence for a five-year period. We are at present assembling the set of documents. However, we are told that P60s may not suffice since they do not prove residence. The Home Office seems to place a strange faith in council tax demands – who files them for safekeeping?

and yet another professor writes:

n October 2017 I had the privilege of appearing before the House of Lords’ EU justice sub-committee to argue that the continued state of uncertainty for EU citizens – let alone deportation – in itself violated article 8. The chair, Baroness Kennedy, was in full agreement. But she was also, quite rightly, keen to ensure we did not cause “alarm around the nation that expulsion [was] on the cards”.

I have been surprised to learn (although perhaps I shouldn't have been, given HMRC's residency requirements in respect of income tax) that any EU citizen who has applied for settled status or 'pre-settles' status is not allowed to leave the country for more than six months, or they lose their UK post-Brexit rights.

Given 'Windrush' citizens were told they lost their citizenship if they left the UK for more than two year, this seems an incredibly harsh and hostile environment for the EU guys in the UK.

 

[Vixen]

Jo Maugham QC explaining on Twitter why, even if parliament passes through a withdrawal bill these coming weeks, it would still be a 'no-deal' Brexit:

If the House of Commons were to approve a withdrawal agreement on 19 October, and there was no extension, we would have No Deal on 31 October. Here's why. THREAD.

Worth a read for the sections of the WA he quotes to illustrate his claim.

To ratify the withdrawal agreement a number of further steps have to be taken on the UK side. If they are not taken the agreement can't be ratified.

These steps are set out in section 13 of the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018.

First, both the withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have to be laid before the Commons and agreed. These documents will together be many hundreds of pages long. As matters stand, they do not even exist.

Commons has neither seen nor debated either.

Second, the House of Lords can take up to five *sitting* days to debatw the withdrawal agreement and framework.

I am not an expert on procedure in the Lords but my understand is that this debate cannot be guillotined.

Third, we need a whole new Act of Parliament to implement the Withdrawal Agreement. That Act would also need to pass the Commons and the Lords.

The Institute for Government says this type of bill usually takes 10-40 sitting days. https://instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/withdrawal-agreement-bill#chart_1551882469

Difficult or impossible to see how all of those steps on the UK side can be taken in the period from Sunday 20th October to the 31st of October.

But that is not all.

There are also legal preconditions to the ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement under EU law, Article 50.

The first is that it also needs to be approved by the European Parliament, which will act on the advice of its Constitutional Affairs Committee.

And so he continues, ending with how an MP can put an oar into all of this.

 

[Mojo]

Wrong! It's amazing how you remainers consistently jump to the wrong conclusions.

I want MPs and others who are not liars or incompetents.

Well that rules out the Brexiteers then.

 

[catsmate]

The almost comical ignorance and ineptness of hard brexiters like ceptimus certainly has been vital to stringing the process out to this point but I'm not sure that their input should be viewed as a contribution of any sort. They've provided nothing but lies and childish demands before trying to circumvent the law to get their way whenever saner heads prevailed. I don't think history will view their efforts with much kindness when this finally gets sorted out.

I hope we eventually see something like, "Despite the efforts put forth by a very vocal minority coalition the Brexit crisis was narrowly averted. Brexit was inspired by Russian destabilization efforts (^see MAGA, Trump) and led by corporate interests using targeted media to mislead and use ill-informed and disenfranchised voters to further their own goals. Numerous safeguards and programs were put in place worldwide to prevent any similar interference by foreign governments, corporate interests or special interest groups in the wake of Brexit and Trump's impeachment. Interestingly, Russia's efforts to target and destabilize democracies eventually produced the opposite effect with closer bonds between nations around the world."

It's not just ignorance and ineptness but also deliberate refusal to acknowledge reality inconsistent with their worldview.

 

[LondonJohn]

Jo Maugham QC explaining on Twitter why, even if parliament passes through a withdrawal bill these coming weeks, it would still be a 'no-deal' Brexit:

Worth a read for the sections of the WA he quotes to illustrate his claim.

And so he continues, ending with how an MP can put an oar into all of this.

If an agreement is reached which is acceptable both to the UK Parliament and to the other EU member states, it's a 100% certainty that the EU will unilaterally extend the UK's membership for a short additional period in order to allow for these legal hurdles to be crossed.

 

[bam]

It's not just ignorance and ineptness but also deliberate refusal to acknowledge reality inconsistent with their worldview.

I can see that in their posts and actions as well, the only mitigating factor being the fact that they were deliberately fed the targeted lies and nonsense they believe now. I hope at some point they realize just how easily they were used and can learn something from the whole episode. Those like ceptimus may never acknowledge the duplicity, they've certainly failed to utilize the many times they've been shown the truth in all the iterations of this thread.

 

[Garrison]

I can see that in their posts and actions as well, the only mitigating factor being the fact that they were deliberately fed the targeted lies and nonsense they believe now. I hope at some point they realize just how easily they were used and can learn something from the whole episode. Those like ceptimus may never acknowledge the duplicity, they've certainly failed to utilize the many times they've been shown the truth in all the iterations of this thread.

Thing is many of them know about the duplicity but don't care. Any lie was fine so long as it got people to vote leave. of course pinning them down on what benefit leave is supposed to deliver is another matter.

 

[bam]

Thing is many of them know about the duplicity but don't care. Any lie was fine so long as it got people to vote leave. of course pinning them down on what benefit leave is supposed to deliver is another matter.

I've seen a few instances where they acknowledge that they've been lied to by Leave but they need to understand and accept that they were used as dupes before they can move on. Professionals targeted them with ads and false stories that worked exactly as intended. Ironically, those like ceptimus who believe they were acting for their country are actively working against their own and their country's best interests for the sake of international corporations and Russia.

I feel we already know why they voted to leave. I want to know why they continue supporting the goal now that so many Leave lies have been exposed and the Russian involvement has come out into the open?

 

[GlennB]

I feel we already know why they voted to leave. I want to know why they continue supporting the goal now that so many Leave lies have been exposed and the Russian involvement has come out into the open?

I think it's called "ego investment". Having gone public with a view it takes some cojones to retract publicly, so people tend to dig in their heels and defend, defend, defend. Happens all the time in real life and on ISF.

 

[Ulf Nereng]

It is hard to admit, even to yourself, that you were wrong. Even harder to admit that you were conned. And hardest of all that you were conned by enemies of your country. The Leave campaign also played the patriotism card for all it was worth.

 

[Samson]

The almost comical ignorance and ineptness of hard brexiters like ceptimus certainly has been vital to stringing the process out to this point but I'm not sure that their input should be viewed as a contribution of any sort. They've provided nothing but lies and childish demands before trying to circumvent the law to get their way whenever saner heads prevailed. I don't think history will view their efforts with much kindness when this finally gets sorted out.

I hope we eventually see something like, "Despite the efforts put forth by a very vocal minority coalition the Brexit crisis was narrowly averted. Brexit was inspired by Russian destabilization efforts (^see MAGA, Trump) and led by corporate interests using targeted media to mislead and use ill-informed and disenfranchised voters to further their own goals. Numerous safeguards and programs were put in place worldwide to prevent any similar interference by foreign governments, corporate interests or special interest groups in the wake of Brexit and Trump's impeachment. Interestingly, Russia's efforts to target and destabilize democracies eventually produced the opposite effect with closer bonds between nations around the world."

The reason I say ceptimus is helpful is because they don't advance reasons in favour of brexit beyond the upholding democracy principle. People coming fresh to the debate would assume there are strong economic and social arguments on each side, but ceptimus proves this is not the case.
Best endeavours by ceptimus still leave me believing brexit is guilty as charged of attempting to ruin the UK.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If an agreement is reached which is acceptable both to the UK Parliament and to the other EU member states, it's a 100% certainty that the EU will unilaterally extend the UK's membership for a short additional period in order to allow for these legal hurdles to be crossed.

I don't see how the EU can unilaterally extend anything. It would have to be agreed by the government.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

It is hard to admit, even to yourself, that you were wrong. Even harder to admit that you were conned. And hardest of all that you were conned by enemies of your country. The Leave campaign also played the patriotism card for all it was worth.

There's an aspect of hanging around too long that is a subtle negotiation to be offered a position in party leadership positions.

 

[SezMe]

I don't see how the EU can unilaterally extend anything. It would have to be agreed by the government.

If the EU and UK reached an agreement, wouldn't such an extension be a part of said agreement? I'm sure both sides are aware of the steps posted above.