Are atheists inevitably pessimists?

No, it's not. I knew you'd double down, but admittedly, your exact method was a bit of a surprise.

Like I said, "opposite" is not synonymous with "absent". "Absence" is, however, the opposite of "presence." Maybe that's where you're mixed up.

You're not gonna move forward if you can't admit even the smallest of errors.

Perfect: You are saying that the absence of belief in god ("atheism") is the opposite of the presence of belief in gods (theism). Therefore, if you want to justify or explain the absence of belief in the gods in your head, you have to have the concept of god. Otherwise, your speech would be empty. Gods do not exist in reality but in the beliefs of theists. Therefore, you get the concept of god in the only place it exists: in the sayings of believers about what they think.
 
Doesn't sound like anything I said. Why don't you quote the part where you allege I said that.
Here it is:
Any reasonably clear proposition surrounding god or Gods that I have heard so far I have found implausible.
Let us continue:
And if you really can't understand the difference between "I find the proposition implausible" and "I find the reasons given in favour of the proposition implausible" then you are missing an important point about reasoning.

I understand the logical difference between "I think the belief in X implausible" and "Your reasons to think in X are implausible". But I don't understand this difference in the practice. To know that the belief in X is implausible without a previous exam of believer's reasons for plausibility of X seems to me very implausible. Specially when you affirm something about the beliefs of theist (that are implausible).

I think that you know some of these reasons (proofs of the existence of God, for example) but don't want to say it for unknown reasons.

In any case, my first proposition was simpler: in order to find the concept of God implausible you need to know what God means in believer's belief. Otherwise, what you say about the implausibility of God would lack any sense. The risk to build a straw-man would be total.
 
Here it is:
So you changed the key word. I use 'proposition' advisedly, it has a specific meaning in the context of reasoning.
I understand the logical difference between "I think the belief in X implausible" and "Your reasons to think in X are implausible". But I don't understand this difference in the practice.
And, as I say, you are missing an important point reasoning
I think that you know some of these reasons (proofs of the existence of God, for example) but don't want to say it for unknown reasons.
I don't recall ever denying I knew these arguments. We have made sport of them often enough in this forum. What I said is that there is an important difference between finding the argument implausible and finding the proposition itself implausible.

To make the point, I have found many an argument in favour of Naturalism implausible, that does not imply I find Naturalism implausible.
In any case, my first proposition was simpler: in order to find the concept of God implausible you need to know what God means in believer's belief. Otherwise, what you say about the implausibility of God would lack any sense. The risk to build a straw-man would be total.
And there you have it backwards.

If I have preconceptions about a proposition someone is making then I risk building a straw man.

We avoid making a straw man when we examine a proposition and supporting argument just as the proposer presents them and avoid assumptions that he or she means anything else than what he or she says.

A striking example is when a Theist makes a technical argument based on a bare theist concept and then someone challenges them to defend some scriptural passage.

When a Theist states a proposition and supports it with an argument I try my best to ignore any definition or concept I previously had and address myself exclusively to the proposition and argument presented.
 
This is one of the reasons I prefer to define an atheist as "If when asked which god you believe in you answer 'none' you are an atheist ".

It helps make clear and keep clear who has the burden of proof.


That aside, what on earth has DavidMo's recent deluge of half baked and misunderstood ideas got to do with atheists being pessimists or not?
 
So you changed the key word. I use 'proposition' advisedly, it has a specific meaning in the context of reasoning.

And, as I say, you are missing an important point reasoning

I don't recall ever denying I knew these arguments. We have made sport of them often enough in this forum. What I said is that there is an important difference between finding the argument implausible and finding the proposition itself implausible.

To make the point, I have found many an argument in favour of Naturalism implausible, that does not imply I find Naturalism implausible.

And there you have it backwards.

If I have preconceptions about a proposition someone is making then I risk building a straw man.

We avoid making a straw man when we examine a proposition and supporting argument just as the proposer presents them and avoid assumptions that he or she means anything else than what he or she says.

A striking example is when a Theist makes a technical argument based on a bare theist concept and then someone challenges them to defend some scriptural passage.

When a Theist states a proposition and supports it with an argument I try my best to ignore any definition or concept I previously had and address myself exclusively to the proposition and argument presented.

You cannot consider a proposition implausible with independence of the arguments that support it. It is the arguments (evidence, proof, refutation or justification) that make true, false, implausible or impossible a proposition. Of course, not only one of them but the set of all arguments in favour or counter. This is why I used the definite article: "the" arguments. Universal. The entire package if possible.

What you are saying is the same that I am defending from the beginning. You have to take into account the concept and justification of the theist in order to refute him. Otherwise you risk to make a straw-man. Obviously, take into account doesn't mean to accept, but to know them.

However, you can consider implausible the existence of any god on the basis of the gods you know. At this point you can affirm that you don't believe gods exist. Of course your statement would be provisional, just as all propositions about facts are. This is not to make a straw-man, but a simple inductive generalization.(*)

I am still intrigued about how do you call your position in the context of the basic proposition "God exist".

(*) ADDED NOTE: I know different versions of the ontological argument, of the five ways, of the argument of perfection or design, of the emotional way, of intuition or faith, of moral justification, of miracles and others that I don't remember now. At this point I think I can say that none of them is convincing and that, therefore, I believe that God does not exist.
 
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This is one of the reasons I prefer to define an atheist as "If when asked which god you believe in you answer 'none' you are an atheist ".

It helps make clear and keep clear who has the burden of proof.


That aside, what on earth has DavidMo's recent deluge of half baked and misunderstood ideas got to do with atheists being pessimists or not?

The burden of proof is a different question.

The debate came till here because some colleagues had argued that they didn't need to know what is the concept of God that theists have in mind. Robin (I hope) an me think that is not possible or convenient.
 
You cannot consider a proposition implausible with independence of the arguments that support it.
Sure you can.

For example, I have never heard a single argument supporting the proposition "There is a highest prime number", but I can consider it untrue based only on disconfirming arguments.

Similarly I have never heard a single argument supporting the proposition that there is an algorithm delineating the digital expansion of a Chaitin constant, but I can consider it untrue on the basis of disconfirming arguments.

So, yes, of course you can consider a proposition implausible independent of supporting arguments.
 
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What you are saying is the same that I am defending from the beginning. You have to take into account the concept and justification of the theist in order to refute him. Otherwise you risk to make a straw-man. Obviously, take into account doesn't mean to accept, but to know them.
In order to refute them, yes, to disbelieve them, no. For example if someone says that Elvis appears in his soup and tells him the secrets of the universe then I will disbelieve him on both counts without having heard any of his arguments.
I am still intrigued about how do you call your position in the context of the basic proposition "God exist".
I thought you might have at least guessed that my response to that is that it is a poorly defined proposition. The guy who is called "God" by his mates (because his helicopter call sign was G.O.D) exists.

Maybe a better proposition would be "There is a necessarily existing intelligence which is the ultimate creator of all contingent things".

(*) ADDED NOTE: I know different versions of the ontological argument, of the five ways, of the argument of perfection or design, of the emotional way, of intuition or faith, of moral justification, of miracles and others that I don't remember now. At this point I think I can say that none of them is convincing and that, therefore, I believe that God does not exist.
Which is a fallacy. The fact that there are some poor arguments in favour of a proposition does not in any way show the proposition to be false.

I can think of any number of very poor arguments for the proposition that there is no after-life. I do not therefore conclude that there must be an afterlife.
 
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Because this third option is to change the subject. If the question is "How do you know X", "X doesn't matter" is not an answer. It sounds like dodging the issue.



I see:

You believe in X but you are not interested in discussing your belief with those that believe no-X. But I don't understand why you enter in a discussion forum if you don't want discuss your position.

The subject of belief in gods has not been changed. The exact definition of a god that may be provided by any believer has zero relevance to my position of said god. Gods, no matter how defined, do not exist.

For all the thousands of words you have posted in these forums you have a very limited view of reality. You also have a tendency to twist clear statements into needlessly complicated strawmen. I have made no comments regarding X and I do not " believe in
X". I am speaking specifically about things that people do or may claim as being gods. When it comes to people believing in gods they are simply wrong. There really is nothing more to discuss. I have no interest in convincing them they are wrong. I think the saying is something like "you cannot reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into."

I have made my position on gods quite clear in this thread. There is no need for you to try to try to change my words into something I have not said.

You seem to think that definitions of gods matter. You have no doubt encountered many definitions of gods in the course of your discussions. Here is your opportunity to provide your single best definition of a god that you think may make me change my position that gods do not exist. Proceed.

Now I am interested in seeing what straw you are going to use in your next response.
 
The subject of belief in gods has not been changed. The exact definition of a god that may be provided by any believer has zero relevance to my position of said god. Gods, no matter how defined, do not exist.

Here's how this next bit is going to go:

Me: Unless we define "god" in a way that means they do exist.

You: That's not what I mean.

Me: Right, because it actually does matter how gods are defined.
 
Here's how this next bit is going to go:

Me: Unless we define "god" in a way that means they do exist.

You: That's not what I mean.

Me: Right, because it actually does matter how gods are defined.

Bet you cannot define one in a way that makes me accept that it exists. I I'll wait.
 
(*) ADDED NOTE: I know different versions of the ontological argument, of the five ways, of the argument of perfection or design, of the emotional way, of intuition or faith, of moral justification, of miracles and others that I don't remember now. At this point I think I can say that none of them is convincing and that, therefore, I believe that God does not exist.
Really? Which god do you not believe exists? You have not defined that god.

How can you disbelieve in a god you failed to define?
 
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(*) ADDED NOTE: I know different versions of the ontological argument, of the five ways, of the argument of perfection or design, of the emotional way, of intuition or faith, of moral justification, of miracles and others that I don't remember now. At this point I think I can say that none of them is convincing and that, therefore, I believe that God does not exist.

Seems to be a rather limited list. What about all the other god descriptions that you have not listed? You must consider them each individually. One or more of them could be true.

ETA - what abaddon said too.
 
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For example, I have never heard a single argument supporting the proposition "There is a highest prime number", but I can consider it untrue based only on disconfirming arguments.
(...)

So, yes, of course you can consider a proposition implausible independent of supporting arguments.

In order to refute them, yes, to disbelieve them, no. For example if someone says that Elvis appears in his soup and tells him the secrets of the universe then I will disbelieve him on both counts without having heard any of his arguments.
(...)
Which is a fallacy. The fact that there are some poor arguments in favour of a proposition does not in any way show the proposition to be false.

I can think of any number of very poor arguments for the proposition that there is no after-life. I do not therefore conclude that there must be an afterlife.

God is neither a mathematical nor a formal logic concept. We can also justifiably discard for exam absurd statements that points to flagrant mental anomalies.
These are clear exceptions to the rule that yourself established:
I assume the position of disbelief in the God proposition because I think there are sufficient reasons to think it is almost certainly not true.

Since I don't think you were refuting a previous sentence you wrote two days earlier, I suppose your last comments only occurred in the heat of battle without much reflection. We can consider them as a simple nuance.

The same way for your last argument. The list of the "proofs" of God's existence I provided was not "some" arguments. It was a complete list of the main theists' arguments. I would be glad to discuss other alternative that I have forgotten. When theists have not found a valuable proof of the existence of God for some millennia I think we have reasonable justification to affirm that this proof doesn't exist. This is the basis of scientific method according Popper. No fallacy.

I thought you might have at least guessed that my response to that is that it is a poorly defined proposition. The guy who is called "God" by his mates (because his helicopter call sign was G.O.D) exists.

Maybe a better proposition would be "There is a necessarily existing intelligence which is the ultimate creator of all contingent things".

I found your definition of "God" interesting although it is only valid for some "western" religions influenced by Hellenistic philosophy. But I had asked you a different question.
I don't define myself as an atheist. If others describe me as an atheist then I will not object.

Since you reject the name "atheist" for your position, what would you call it?
 
The subject of belief in gods has not been changed. The exact definition of a god that may be provided by any believer has zero relevance to my position of said god. Gods, no matter how defined, do not exist.
(...)
I have made my position on gods quite clear in this thread. There is no need for you to try to try to change my words into something I have not said.

You seem to think that definitions of gods matter. You have no doubt encountered many definitions of gods in the course of your discussions. Here is your opportunity to provide your single best definition of a god that you think may make me change my position that gods do not exist. Proceed.

You mix two different themes: The definition of God and his existence. The first is limited to how men use the word "god". This is a semantic issue. The second is a question of facts: how can we provide or refute evidence that "gods" exist.

I am only discussing the first question. It is self-evident that you cannot understand the use of a word that comes from theism without analyzing how theists use this word. So easy to understand. If you don't get such a simple idea it's because you're mixing two different topics.

I have already given my definition of "god". It is based on the idea of god in theism. Obviously the theism I know. It was something like this:
God is a supernatural force that has exceptional powers and gives rules to act in order to get some reward in this or other life.

This is a very broad definition. Actually, what interests me are the "religions of the book" or similar, which include creation, omnipotence, goodness, etc. Discussing god with a believer in the Aztec gods is of little interest to me.
 
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Seems to be a rather limited list. What about all the other god descriptions that you have not listed? You must consider them each individually. One or more of them could be true.

ETA - what abaddon said too.

From a previous comment of mine:

The list of the "proofs" of God's existence I provided was not "some" arguments. It was a complete list of the main theists' arguments. I would be glad to discuss other alternative that I have forgotten. When theists have not found a valuable proof of the existence of God for some millennia I think we have reasonable justification to affirm that this proof doesn't exist. This is the basis of scientific method according Popper.
 
Here's how this next bit is going to go:

Me: Unless we define "god" in a way that means they do exist.

You: That's not what I mean.

Me: Right, because it actually does matter how gods are defined.

You cannot discuss anything if you don't get a definition of what you are discussing (consensual preferably). Definition is a previous task to discuss about existencen of anything. Two different steps.
 
Bet you cannot define one in a way that makes me accept that it exists. I I'll wait.
Well, some attempts to give a confusing definition of "god" are attempts to create a mess in confusing minds. For example, "God is the breeze on the autumn leaves". "God is the subtle whisper that introduces Love into your heart". It seems incredible, but sometimes it works.
 
These are clear exceptions to the rule that yourself established:
I can't see any contradiction. It is what I have been saying all along.

You seem to have this habit of arbitrarily accusing me of contradiction without even trying to back it up.

If you are going to accuse me of contradiction then show me the contradiction
Since I don't think you were refuting a previous sentence you wrote two days earlier, I suppose your last comments only occurred in the heat of battle without much reflection. We can consider them as a simple nuance.
Again, there was no contradiction.
I found your definition of "God" interesting although it is only valid for some "western" religions influenced by Hellenistic philosophy.
It wasn't so much a definition as a proposition.

It is pretty much the proposition that the Abrahamic religions make.

There may be, as you say, many other concepts to which people have attached this word "God", that pretty much underlines that "God exists" is a vacuous claim.
But I had asked you a different question.

Since you reject the name "atheist" for your position, what would you call it?
I don't have a name for it.

As I have said, there are some propositions I believe or find plausible, others I don't believe or don't find plausible and some for which I don't have sufficient evidence or argument to decide yet.

I don't have a label for it. I don't go in, as I have said before, for thinking up labels for the fact that I believe some things and don't believe others.
 
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