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The Trump Presidency: Part 17

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kellyb said:
Trump frequently ran on stuff like that in 2015/2016. It was a his primary diss on ["low energy"] Jeb.

I figure GW Bush's exceedingly low popularity rating towards the end of his presidency, even with Republicans, showed Trump and his strategists that there was an anti-war "from the right" "in" with that take.
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Yeah. I like your signature by the way. Kinda goes well with mine.
(To be honest, the thought may have come from Socrates originally, but I've seen it attributed to Shakespeare.)
 
Minoosh said:
I seriously don't think it's going to work out that way. Erdogan said, "You should leave because we're planning an invasion." Trump said, "We'll leave." It's not that I expect to see great loyalty to the Kurds in the Senate; maybe there will be some, but I think they're pretty pissed that Trump did not push back on Erdogan *at all*. Then there's the issue of washing his hands of 11,000 imprisoned ISIS fighters.
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I've not seen a report of the text of call between Presidents Trump and Erdogan so I'm not sure what was said, what was promised or any of those things.

As to not pushing back on Erdogan and 11,000 ISIS fighters making their way into Europe (or not) I don't think that the US electorate (or at least the part that isn't already opposed to President Trump) particularly care and so neither do GOP.

Minoosh said:
I strongly suspect that key senators are sitting on lots more examples of Trump malfeasance. I also think they hear from former Administration people like Jim Mattis, John Kelly or such. Not necessarily those two, but people like them. Even if Lindsey Graham pivots to acting subservient many things will still be happening behind the scenes related to longstanding differences they have had with Trump over things like the Khashoggi murder, his conduct in Helsinki, sanctions on Russia. Unanimously they announced Russia interfered substantially with U.S. elections. The vote to see the whistleblower report was also unanimous. In and of themselves these incidents might be glossed over but taken as a whole they have IMO sparked pervasive suspicion and dislike of Trump. And everything we the public know is probably the tip of the iceberg. But, of course, I'm guessing.
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Whatever they personally think about President Trump in private and no matter what they may or may not know, IMO it comes down to electoral mathematics. For most GOP senators, the biggest threat to their reelection comes from within their own party. If they're the GOP candidate, they'll be reelected, if they're primaried then they won't.

President Trump's base accounts for well over 50% of GOP support and so in order to avoid being primaried, you have to continue to support President Trump. Expect to see unwavering support of the President until that changes - and I don't see that happening any time soon.

We've had this for more than three years, since Donald Trump won the primary. Prominent GOPers saying negative things about one specific thing but they never follow through and always meekly return to the fold a few days later.

Minoosh said:
Kudos to the UK readers who are taking the time an energy to contribute to these threads while their own country is in such a precarious state. I try to keep up but it's almost impossible. Anyway I appreciate what I'm learning in that thread. Thanks.
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By comparison President Trump is light relief. At least any impact of his presidency is reversible - unlike Brexit :(
 
Ryokan said:
Screw the Ukraine conversation, I want a transcript with Trump's conversation with Erdogan. What was it that convinced him to sell out the Kurds?
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Amen. And I have a funny feeling the Senate already has one.

Someone should spoof his caving to Erdogan so he can melt down over I never said those exact words! Fraud! Slander! Treason!!!
 
Minoosh said:
Amen. And I have a funny feeling the Senate already has one.

Someone should spoof his caving to Erdogan so he can melt down over I never said those exact words! Fraud! Slander! Treason!!!
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I get the feeling that it's like there's a reverse FOTL (Freemen Of The Land) thing going on here. FOTLs believe that specific phrases have almost magical powers to allow someone to avoid paying taxes or drive their car without a licence or unlock a multi-million dollar fund that the government holds for you from birth.

President Trump, his administration, and almost the whole of the GOP seem to think that unless a specific form of words is used in conjunction with a series of actions then that person isn't guilty of any wrongdoing. It's like claiming that I'm only guilty of murder if I repeat three times "I'm murdering you" while I stab you in the chest. If I don't say it, or say it twice or four times then I cannot be guilty of murder. :boggled:
 
The Don said:
Well, he's said it and there must have been a reason why he did. I guess he figured that enough GOP supporters would believe him.

Perhaps this is what GOP senators and representatives need to hear so that over the next 24-48 hours they can rein back their criticism of President Trump's withdrawal of US troops and turn it instead into criticism of Turkey and the Kurds for fighting.
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Who knows, but there are only three posibilities here:

1) Trump and Pompeo knew exact what was going to happen and gave it the go ahead on the call to Erdogan.

2) Trump and Pompeo knew exact what was going to happen and didn't say not to do so on the call to Erdogan, thus giving tacit approval.

3) Trump and Pompeo knew exact what was going to happen and told Erdogan not to, but he considers them so weak that he went ahead anyways.
 
Minoosh said:
That’s bad enough, but completely abdicating custody of 11,000 ISIS prisoners - then suggesting they will escape and go to Europe - that is petulance to an insane degree. Literally insane.

Trump says he’ll want more than sanctions if Turkey doesn’t “do it” humanely. If anyone figures out what “it” is, please post.
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To answer your question... I was watching Amanpour interview a Turkish advisor to Erdogan yesterday who said trump and Erdogan had spoken and come to an agreement on what was to happen. That's not verbatim, but I immediately thought it sounded like trump was fully aware of what Turkish actions would be. As such, "it" is a reference to removing Kurdish fighters from the region.

My reaction to that comment from trump was to wonder what he meant by "more than sanctions". Does he mean some kind of military response? What kind of sense does that make??

ETA: Here's part of that interview.
 
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My guess: Erdogan told Trump that the Kurds are communist terrorists, so Trump assumed that no one would be on their side.
 
Pixel42 said:
The campaign to re-join the EU will start the day after Brexit. There's already a majority in favour.
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Perhaps, but the UK will never get the terms we currently have.

I think that a concerted right-wing campaign will manage to pin the blame for the disastrous Brexit on the EU to the extent that 50%-60% of the UK population will end up believing it - more if Scotland achieves independence.
 
Lurch said:
How will we know if the election was run fairly, what with Moscow Mitch ensuring no measures are taken to strengthen the election process against the numerous bad actors meddling--at Trump's express request.
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Our intelligence and security agencies told us last time. They've continued to tell us this in spite of the Whitehouse. You think they will suddenly fall in line now?
 
Craig4 said:
Our intelligence and security agencies told us last time. They've continued to tell us this in spite of the Whitehouse. You think they will suddenly fall in line now?
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That could well be one of Trump's serious mistakes: Making those agencies his enemies.

Hans
 
Many Kurds served with British ground forces as 'Levies' in WW2, defending RAF bases during the pro-Axis coup attempt in Iraq in 1941.
They also served with Royal Marines in the Italian campaign.
 
Belz... said:
...what?
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A country only deserves US support if they served alongside US forces in Normandy - or perhaps alongside President Trump in his own personal Vietnam at Studio 54.

Captain_Swoop said:
Many Kurds served with British ground forces as 'Levies' in WW2, defending RAF bases during the pro-Axis coup attempt in Iraq in 1941.
They also served with Royal Marines in the Italian campaign.
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Doesn't count, wasn't in Normandy. :rolleyes:
 
Just to reiterate what has happened:

Trump has unilaterally made the US abandon a long standing ally that has fought alongside US troops against ISIS. The result will be many dead US allies and the probable release of ISIS prisoners, which will lead to a possible resurgence of ISIS and an increase in terror attacks in the US and Europe.

This is what Trump supporters have to defend.
 
uke2se said:
Just to reiterate what has happened:

Trump has unilaterally made the US abandon a long standing ally that has fought alongside US troops against ISIS. The result will be many dead US allies and the probable release of ISIS prisoners, which will lead to a possible resurgence of ISIS and an increase in terror attacks in the US and Europe.

This is what Trump supporters have to defend.
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It's likely that any increase in terror will happen in Europe rather than the US but in any case, any Islamic terrorism attacks, especially any in the US play into the Trump/GOP narrative that Muslims are bad and should be kept out of the country. Heck it makes President Trump look smart for insisting on the Muslim ban.

The withdrawal of US troops means fewer US soldier deaths and President Trump makes good on his promise to bring them home and stop US involvement in useless foreign wars (i.e. the ones he didn't start). To his base that's a President doing his job.

The Trump base don't care about wider geopolitics, they have no interest in grubby foreign wars and they don't care how the US is perceived internationally, they think that isolationism is a good thing.

Hell the whole thing is the Trump business model in a nutshell, get what you want from your supplier and then screw them over when the bill is presented.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
So, that's most of the WW2 allies then?
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Yes. Or at least yes when he said that thing. He will likely contradict it in many ways in upcoming days and possibly completely reverse his opinion altogether.

He visited Normandy and those French fellas were nice to him and threw him a parade. For him WWII = Normandy.
 
GlennB said:
"Asked about the Kurds, President Trump said that the Kurds did not help the US during WWII or in the Normandy invasion/ D-Day"

So **** them? Dunno. it's hard to tell what this loony means.

"Trump said (of ISIS fighters): “Well, they’re going to be escaping to Europe. That’s where they want to go; they want to go back to their homes, but Europe didn’t want them from us.”

That doesn't even make grammatical sense, let alone any other kind.

Peak Trump yet? I doubt it. Dear FSM.
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Unreal. The demonization of the Kurds begins. This makes it as clear as can be that Trump green-lighted Turkey. There wasn't much doubt to begin with, when Turkey rolls in the day after US exit.
 
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