Ten years without Yitzhak Rabin

Mmm, ZN, that's a Human Rights Watch report, not Amnesty International.

And let me get this straight: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are lying, while you, Zenith-Nadir, some bloke posting on a a BB most often without giving sources or references (or referencing dubious sources), is telling the truth...

Mmm, who should I believe, who is more credible here, let me think... ;)
 
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Mmm, ZN, that's a Human Rights Watch report, not Amnesty International.
Whatever.

And let me get this straight: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are lying, while you, Zenith-Nadir, some bloke posting on a a BB often without giving sources or references, is telling the truth...
I didn't say "lying". You said "lying". No where in this thread did I post the word "lying" until now. I said they paint a picture that has the effect planted firmly before the cause.

Let me lay some foundation:

Hamas

Hamas is the Palestinians’ largest and most influential Muslim fundamentalist movement. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raise “the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.”

http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/hamas.html

Palestine Islamic Jihad

Formed by militant Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the 1970s, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) is committed to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel through attacks against Israeli military and civilian targets inside Israel and the Palestinian territories.

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/pij.htm

al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades

The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades are one of the militias of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's al-Fatah faction. In March 2002, after a deadly al-Aqsa Brigades suicide bombing in Jerusalem, the US State Department added the group to the list of foreign terrorist organizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs'_Brigades

Tell me Orwell who's responsibility is it to protect Israelis from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades? I'll give you a head start...Is it Israel? Is it the Palestinian Authority? Or is it a third, yet-to-be-named, party?

My second question for you Orwell is if the Palestinian Authority refuses to protect Israelis from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades who's responsibility does it then become? Is it Israel? Or is it a third, yet-to-be-named, party?

January 3, 2005

With elections less than a week away, interim Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas is courting support from armed militant factions by promising to protect their members from Israeli arrest and assassination.

On a visit to the Gaza border town of Rafah at the weekend, Mr Abbas received a hero's welcome from dozens of members of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant offshoot of his own mainstream Fatah party.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Middl...s/2005/01/02/1104601238304.html?oneclick=true

September 22, 2005

Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas yesterday brushed aside an appeal from the quartet of international peace mediators to dismantle militant groups, saying he knows best how to handle them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...LAC/20050922/WORLD22-1/TPInternational/Africa

October 21, 2005

President Bush urged Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas yesterday to begin confronting "armed gangs" thwarting peace between Israelis and Palestinians,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/20/AR2005102000965.html
 
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You accused Human Rights Watch of not being honest.

Lemme illustrate how the cart pulls the horse. If Amnesty International was being honest about the course of events they would put the effect behind the cause instead of infront of it.

Maybe something like:

...These acts of Palestinian terrorism, and the refusal by the Palestinian Authority to take any serious steps resulted in...

But the Amnesty International wording does not paint it like that. As usual, with most reporting on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the words place the effect - IDF raids against Palestinian terrorists - before the cause - Qassam rockets, terrorism and the refusal by the Palestinian Authority to take any serious steps to stop it.

In the present contest, that's just another way of saying "lying", and you hinted at it: lies of omission... And then your "cart pulls the horse" manure is what is usually referred to as "spin".
 
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Tell me Orwell who's responsibility is it to protect Israelis from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades? I'll give you a head start...Is it Israel? Is it the Palestinian Authority? Or is it a third, yet-to-be-named, party?

My second question for you Orwell is if the Palestinian Authority refuses to protect Israelis from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades who's responsibility does it then become? Is it Israel? Or is it a third, yet-to-be-named, party?

Protecting Israel from all that should not involve (and I quote) "lethal force in an excessive or indiscriminate manner", "reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas", "extrajudicial executions, "stringent restrictions (...) on the movement of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories causing widespread poverty and unemployment and hindered access to health and education facilities", destruction of "several hundred Palestinian homes, large areas of agricultural land, and infrastructure networks", expansion of "illegal settlements and to build a fence/wall through the West Bank, confining Palestinians in isolated enclaves cut off from their land and essential services in nearby towns and villages", "obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel; torture; and the use of Palestinians as “human shields”".

No matter what the Palestinian Authority does or doesn't do, says or doesn't say, these systematic abuses are inexcusable and unjustifiable. Get that?
 
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You accused Human Rights Watch of not being honest.
So now you want me to go on a tangent to debate the semantic differences between:

If Amnesty International was being honest about the course of events they would....
...and ...

And let me get this straight: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are lying,
Those semantic games are so tedious. I'll tell you what, you infer what your personality requires you to.

Meanwhile
Protecting Israel from all that
"Gunmen, suicide bombers, Qassam rockets, mortars, remote control mines, vehicle ambushes, religious & political leaders inciting the masses to violence"... would that be a fair description of what you refer to as "all that"?

should not involve (and I quote) "lethal force in an excessive or indiscriminate manner",
Maybe when the IDF comes to arrest the jihadists launching rockets and blowing up Israeli restaurants and buses they should throw olive branches at their hideouts. :D

"reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas",
And we went through why the IDF strikes civilian residential areas already. The terrorists in Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades hide their bases of operation inside civilian buildings, schools and homes on purpose. The Palestinian Authority fails to defend it's civilians by refusing to stop the violent actions of these extremist groups. Therefore when the IDF comes to get the people & leaders who, let's say, masterminded the Sbarro pizzeria bombing, the probability that the confrontation kills noncombatant Palestinians is extemely high.

So either the IDF just lets these groups gain strength free and clear to plan their next attacks or the IDF stops them...and as your Amnesty International link clearly stated:

neither the Palestinian Authority nor the armed groups responsible have taken any serious steps to act against those who ordered or organized such attacks.
Israel is damned if you do...damned if you don't.

"extrajudicial executions,
...of combatants...

"stringent restriction (...) on the movement of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories causing widespread poverty and unemployment
All the more reason for the Palestinian Authority to take control and assert it's authority by disarming the combatants who disguise themselves as civilians and hide amongst noncombatants. Then there would be no need for IDF checkpoints, roadblocks or curfews and the Palestinian economy could grow.

and hindered access to health and education facilities",
All the more reason for the Palestinian Authority to take control and assert it's authority by disarming the combatants. Then there would be no need for checkpoints, roadblocks or curfews which cause hindered access to health and education facilities.

destruction of "several hundred Palestinian homes, large areas of agricultural land, and infrastructure networks",
All the more reason for the Palestinian Authority to take control and assert it's authority by disarming the combatants who's often-violent actions result in retaliation by the IDF which in turn often causes the destruction of noncombatant Palestinian homes, Palestinian agricultural lands and Palestinian infrastructure.

expansion of "illegal settlements
The first valid argument I can agree with.

and to build a fence/wall through the West Bank, confining Palestinians in isolated enclaves cut off from their land and essential services in nearby towns and villages",
If the Palestinian terrorist organizations were dismantled then a fence would be irrelevant. Likewise inconvenience to Palestinians could be instantly be minimized by access gates in the fence, but again the reality is that the security fence is necessary because Palestinians will not police themselves and the Palestinian Authority refuses to dismantle Hamas, Islamic Jihad... or Fatah's very own.. Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

"obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel; torture; and the use of Palestinians as “human shields”".
As Sherman's said, "War is Hell".


No matter what the Palestinian Authority does or doesn't do, says or doesn't say, these systematic abuses are inexcusable and unjustifiable. Get that?
So that leads me back to my original question Orwell. Well there was originally two, but one will do if I restate it in greater detail:

If the Palestinian Authority refuses to protect Israelis - and noncombatant palestinians - from the combatants who belong to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades who's responsibility does it then become?
 
If the Palestinian Authority refuses to protect Israelis - and noncombatant palestinians - from the combatants who belong to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades who's responsibility does it then become?

Mmm, what kind of fallacy is ZN committing? I'm hesitating between the "loaded question" and the "begging the question" fallacies... Aren't these two fallacies similar to the point were they're almost the same?

I'm talking about human rights abuses committed in the name of security. You assume that Israeli security must necessarily involve systematic human rights abuses. Well, I don't think so. If the Israeli government is willing top commit atrocities in the name of security, then the Israeli government is not morally superior to the Palestinian Authority, who you claim is willing to use terrorism to accomplish political goals.

When Sherman said "war is hell", he was implicitly taking an amoral stance towards the terrible things he was doing to defeat the Confederacy. He wasn't claiming any moral superiority in comparison to the the Rebs. But you, and the other Israeli apologists on the board, constantly make claims of Israeli moral superiority regarding the Palestinians. You can't both say "war is hell" and then claim moral superiority towards an enemy, not if you don't want to be accused of hypocrisy. So what is it?
 
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Mmm, what kind of fallacy is ZN committing?
Enough with the ol' shell game. Answer the question.

I'm talking about human rights abuses committed in the name of security. You assume that Israeli security must necessarily involve systematic human rights abuses.
Nope. I assume nothing of the kind. But let's stick to the question.

If the Israeli government is willing top commit atrocities in the name of security, then the Israeli government is not morally superior to the Palestinian Authority, who you claim is willing to use terrorism to accomplish political goals.
You have one-track mind. The topic is "the combatants" of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades....not "Orwell's opinion about the Israeli government". How you feel is quite clear. I am asking you to think outside of the box for a sec.

But you, and the other Israeli apologists on the board, constantly make claims of Israeli moral superiority regarding the Palestinians.
Where exactly? Could you point those parts out. If you mean moral superiority between the IDF and some jihadist suicide nutcase bomber I'd say yes...the IDF is morally superior. Previously in the thread:

The bad guys are not "the Palestinians" or "the Israelis" they are the terror groups - backed by Syria and Iran - who are the bad guys. And I am tired of documenting it time and time again, thread after thread, page after page... ad nauseum.
But let's deal with that later...first to the question.

The question is...and I will remove the hypothetical and simplify it:

The Palestinian Authority refuses to disarm the combatants in Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. In your opinion who's responsibility does it then become?
 
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And let me get this straight: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are lying, while you, Zenith-Nadir, some bloke posting on a a BB most often without giving sources or references (or referencing dubious sources), is telling the truth...

ZN almost never posts without sources, and his sources are almost never dubious.

If you can find examples to the contrary (and you won't, because this entire thread has been you making unfounded accusations about my behavior and others with no evidence or examples) I will cheerfully eat crow, but for now this stands as evidence you don't even pay attention to arguments you don't agree with.
 
No Mycroft. When discussing a particular subject, it is always a good idea to identify and define the subject being discussed. That's what Orwell did.

He came up with a way to describe the same thing in two different ways. One way is positive, the other is negative. When it’s something he agrees with, it’s “patriotism”, when it’s something he disagrees with, it’s “nationalism.”

Both of which are a cop-out designed to remove any need from actually studying complicated issues before forming an opinion. If your gut reaction is favorable, describe it terms that conform to the good “patriotic” label. If your gut reaction is bad, then it’s evil “nationalism.” No critical thinking needed.

That's not what's being discussed. Apparently, you believe that Israeli nationalism (in the sense of the Orwellian definition of nationalism) is legitimate (since you have never ever condemned it), while you demand that I condemn Palestinian nationalism. That's a double standard.

Here is the thing: I don’t agree with Orwell. I think his essay on nationalism is shallow and without merit. Therefore I don’t believe anything in the sense of the Orwellian definition.

What I do think is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians have legitimate nationalistic ambitions. Both see nationalism as a means towards independence, self-determination, and self-defense. Unlike you, I don’t condemn them for these very realistic and human needs.

And I don't condemn support for Israel. I support Israel's right to existance and security, but I don't support it unconditionally. I condemn unconditional, one sided, jingoistic support for Israel, the kind of support you, Web Fusion, Zenith-Nadir, Skeptic, are renowned for.

Again, you make a charge without substance. Can you give any example where any of us were wrong in our support? If so, argue that.

Nuance. Actually, I even believe that your kind of support for Israel is bad for Israel, since your blatant blind partisanship gives support for Israel a bad name.

Right, so disagreeing with you too much is bad for the cause. :oldroll:

By the way, your mention of Palestinian nationalism when I was demonstrating my annoyance at Israeli human rights abuses and at your one sided treatment of Israel is thread drift that smells of Tu Quoque.

Except I mentioned Palestinian nationalism in direct response to your bringing up the Orwell essay. To refresh your memory:

http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?postid=1281577#post1281577

Or more probably and accurately, just another one of your attempts at side-stepping the issue by moving into irrelevancies, something that you do quite often when under pressure...

The issue of nationalism is directly relevant. You’re the one that introduced it, remember?
 
What I've learnt Mycroft is that there is no convincing some people that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are a danger to Israeli and Palestinian public safety. Everything is a "zionist plot" to expand this dogma or an apartheid warcrime to serve that desire.

The reality is Hamas and Islamic Jihad are the threat to safety and public interest. Why Orwell? For the very reason that their stated goal is the destruction of Israel through jihad. Only the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are peacefully suicide bombing civilians towards an end to the occupation under the banner of "Palestinian Nationalism". The other two groups use the banner of "Palestinian Nationalism" to blow their noses with.

_39258241_arafatrabin_ap_238.jpg

LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,
Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization​
(emphasis mine)

Twelve years ago Rabin knew Arafat had not renounced terrorism and was arming and financing these very groups when he shook his hand on the White House lawn Orwell.

Even in 2002 Arafat had not renounced terrorism and was still arming and financing these very same terror groups:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1819635.stm

14 February, 2002, 09:27 GMT

_1819635_mortars_ap300.jpg


The United States says Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has accepted responsibility for an attempt to smuggle arms on board a ship intercepted by Israel last month. Until now, Mr Arafat had denied any knowledge of the affair, which cast a shadow over US efforts to implement a ceasefire between the two sides.

The United States had demanded an explanation from Mr Arafat, saying it had compelling evidence of Palestinian involvement in the smuggling attempt.

On Wednesday night, Mr Straw emerged from "frank" talks with Mr Arafat in Ramallah urging the Palestinian leader to take action to stop extremists carrying out terrorist attacks in Israel.
...and now, years later, Rabin is dead, Arafraud is dead and the same terror groups Arafat promised to prevent in 1993 are still alive and well....protected now, if you will, by Abbas.

http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh...id15.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/05/15/ixworld.html

A scheme to disarm wanted Palestinian militants is in crisis because hundreds of gunmen are refusing to take up jobs in the security forces - and many who do, Israel claims, are being allowed to keep their weapons.

To Mr Abbas's disappointment, however, even the dual inducements of a regular salary and the prospect of no longer being hunted by Israeli forces have not proved sufficiently alluring, with only 110 fighters joining up so far. Not one is from Hamas, the group behind many of the worst attacks against Israel. Last week in Jenin, a local militant leader - who under the scheme would become a security official - hijacked a police car and shot it up, blowing out the windows and tyres, in protest at what he claimed was harassment from police trying to confiscate one of his guns.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=18686

September 22, 2005

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas brushed aside an appeal from the "Quartet" of international peace mediators to dismantle militant groups
If these groups are really fighting for Palestinian Nationalism then should they not obey the instructions of the Palestinian leader who was elected by popular vote Orwell?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02225511.htm

GAZA, Oct 2 (Reuters) - Palestinian police exchanged fire with Hamas militants in Gaza City on Sunday in the first such clash since Israel withdrew from Gaza last month, witnesses said. Medics and Hamas said three people were wounded.

Both sides accused the other of sparking the confrontation, which appeared to be the worst fighting among Palestinian factions since late July when angry militants opened fire at Palestinian police who tried to prevent them from launching rockets at Israel.
Nope.


Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are real Orwell.. and very deadly. All it takes is for one of their walking zombie timebombs to get through to ruin a whole lotta people's lives.

Thousands of people have suffered because the Palestinian Authority has yet to: "assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.". Arafat promised that in his 1993 letter to Rabin....and frankly, to the world.

Israel knows who these groups are, who their leaders are, and where they are. Abbas knows who these groups are, who their leaders are, and where they are. So what's stopping the Palestinian Authority from disarming them per Arafat's 1993 promise if it is about Palestinian Nationalism?
 
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That's funny.
The Palestinian National Charter - Adopted by the Palestine National Council, July 1-17, 1968:
http://www.pna.gov.ps/Government/gov/plo_Charter.asp
Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
Weizmann et al made a terrible fuss when the British created Transjordan from the mandated territories. (They made a great fuss previously when the Brits let the French have territory south of the Litani Valley, which the zionists claimed was integral and vital for a viable state in Palestine.) Not all zionists have accepted that British Imperial diktat should apply. You'll recall Ussishkins podium-pounding "A Jewish majority on both banks of the Jordan!" back in 1929, or Ben-Gurion's same statement to the Peel Commission. Israel claims to have abandoned that position by making peace with Jordan and withdrawing from Southern Lebanon. If they are not to be held to a historical but revised position, why should the Palestinians be?
Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time
The legality of the UN partition is a matter for debate, the immorality of it is undeniable.

1968:In 1968 the PLO did not recognize Israel, Arafat was the leader of the PLO.
1968-1988: From '68 to '88 the PLO was responsible for 20 years of well-documented international terrorism. Arafat was the leader of the PLO...who still did not recognize Israel.
Examples? (Mycroftian I know, but I will actually respond if you provide them.)
(3) the Department of State statement of November 26, 1988, found that `the United States Government has convincing evidence that PLO elements have engaged in terrorism against Americans and others' and that `Mr. [Yasser] Arafat, Chairman of the PLO, knows of, condones, and lends support to such acts; he therefore is an accessory to such terrorism'
You'll excuse my scepticism after the "convincing evidence" of Iraqi WMD. What would be the strategic, or even tactical, aim of PLO terrorism against 'Murricans?
1989:In '89 America refuses to deal with Arafat/the PLO because the PLO refuses to recognize Israel and because of PLO terrorism.
The US position has always been that zionists had the right to create a nation where other people lived. Kathleen Christison's Perceptions of Palestine is an excellent treatment of the US-Zionist relationship over the last century or so. The Palestinians who suffered, and continue to suffer, the consequences of zionist colonialism take a different view, unsurprisingly. So do I.
1993:
In 1993 after 25 years of international terrorism and two civil wars the PLO finally signs "a deal" to make peace with Israel... and recognize it. The Palestinian Authority is created, Arafat is appointed its chief executive officer, and a plan for eventual self-government by Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is set in motion. The mega-murderer is suddenly a statesman, an international star, and in 1994, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize!
Recognition of Israel, but not recognition of a Palestinian State by Israel. Only a belated recognition that there might actually be Palestinians. There is world recognition of the need for a Palestinian nation-state to cater for the Palestinians who have suffered eviction and/or occupation as a result of the creation of Israel. Israel stand alone in refusing to accept that.
Since there never was a Palestinian state in recorded history that is in reference to Israel, the PLO must recognize the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Israel.
Which it has done, and which has been confirmed and ratified by the democratically elected Palestinian Authority, which, while never a sovereign authority in the sense of representing a sovereign nation-state, is a de facto national authority recognised by the international nation-state system, including the US and the UN. Israel does not recognise it as such.
The UN partition stipulated a state for the indigenes, a Palestinian State in effect, but Israel refuses to recognise that such an entity exists. But then, Israel never did accept partition. Not even after it was created. That doesn't change the fact that a Palestinian State has existed just as validly and just as long as Israel has. The Palestinians have recognised Israel, and limited their ambitions by doing so. Israel refuses to recognise a Palestinian State, and all the evidence says it's because doing so would limit their ambitions in the West Bank and Gaza.

So what happened after the PLO signed a deal with Israel in '93 to follow Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338?
More Israelis were killed by Palestinian terrorists after the Oslo agreement was signed than before it.
Here you slip with great facility from "PLO" to "Palestinian". Should I equate Kach with the Israeli government? Should I equate Rabin's assassins with Islamic Jihad? Yes to the last, of course; both groups were rejecting peace by actions. Arafat must be one of the most attempted-assassinated characters in history. (King Faisal of Jordan, as I recall, survived 13 known attempts, including a faulty hand-grenade landing practically in his lap.)
There was continued Hamas, Islamic Jihad and PFLP terrorist activism within the Autonomy and a delay in a crackdown on them. The PLO, now called the Palestinian Authority, would not extradite known terrorists to Israel. But the PA did meet to amend the PLO Charter to recognize Israel....wink wink.
Would not extradite "known terrorists". That would be a list provided by Israel, I imagine. Let's assume Arafat sends his police out to round them up and turn them over to the Israelis, where they are incarcerated without trial for indefinite periods. Next week, a new list.
Arafat was not a dictator. The PA was a democratically elected constitutional body - Israel, by the way, doesn't have a constitution - which required legal procedures before a citizen could be scooped off the streets and presented to a foreign power. Things like charges and a prima facie case. They weren't getting that from Israel.
The PA claims it cancelled the articles, but to date, Nov 19th 2005, no amended PLO articles have ever been produced. The PLO charter appears as originally written on the official Palestinian Authority website without amended articles. To which an entire multi-page JREF thread was spent endlessly debating the difference between simply saying the "articles were amended" and actually producing "amended articles".
Then the Palestinian Authority reneged on its promises of democratic reform and establishment of the rule of law.
See above. Democratic reform of what? Are you perhaps suffering from sloganitis? The Palestinian Authority replaced the military occupational authority that had held sway since 1967 in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, in those parts that had not been expropriated by force and colonised. The PA long pre-existed the territorial existence, just as the World Zionist Organisation and the Yishuv long pre-existed Israel. It was a diasporan creation. The PLO enabled it, it didn't dictate it.
It held elections exactly once and never again since Arafat was overwhelmingly elected. The Palestinian education system continued to instill hatred for Jews and called for the destruction of Israel. Terrorist activity also continued, with the PA ineffectual in halting it - when not encouraging it outright.
What did the Yishuv do to stop the Irgun murdering British policemen, or bombing Arab markets, or assassinating UN mediators? Before it was Yishuv policy? They knew who they were, they knew where they were, but they weren't going to start a civil war. These were critical times, the birth of a nation. The Hagana tried to suppress the Irgun for a time, but they wouldn't, when it came to it, draw down on them. The birth of a nation is a difficult time. I think it was webfusion who pointed out that the Israelis are still creating a new nation in very trying circumstances.
How easy is it for the Palestinians, do you think? Not terribly, IMO.
On November 12, 2003 Arafat said this:Well..ok Mr. Arafat, what are the first 18 words of the Road Map?Mmmmmmm....well...ok... what is being preached on Palestinian TV to the masses?This status quo remained until Arafat's death in 2004.
There's no status quo when the settlements keep expanding, and there are never any talks about negotiations about a final settlement that might, if it ever were to happen, involve Israeli recognition of a sovereign Palestinian State. A recognition that would make any future expansion an agressive war by definition.
How the creation of Israel in the first place, to satisfy a uniquely nationalist-colonialist ideology conjured-up by German-loving anti-semitic Jews and students - I kid you not, look it up, it's horrifying but true - was not an act of aggression in the first place escapes me. Mycroft has dismissed it as "the interaction of two peoples", but only one party chose to have an interaction at all.
 
And now ladies and gents, observe while Mycroft and his merry band of partisan hacks try to lure the discussion away from Israeli human rights abuses and move it towards Palestinian terrorism! It's the old side-step lets change the subject waltz!

It's an amazing feat of illusion! You won't believe your eyes!

One question: does the IDF deliberately target Palestinian civilians? Yes or no.
 
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He came up with a way to describe the same thing in two different ways. One way is positive, the other is negative. When it’s something he agrees with, it’s “patriotism”, when it’s something he disagrees with, it’s “nationalism.”

Both of which are a cop-out designed to remove any need from actually studying complicated issues before forming an opinion. If your gut reaction is favorable, describe it terms that conform to the good “patriotic” label. If your gut reaction is bad, then it’s evil “nationalism.” No critical thinking needed.
No. Orwell defines quite precisely what he things patriotism is and what he thinks nationalism is. There is no place for "gut reactions".
By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’(1). But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.



Here is the thing: I don’t agree with Orwell. I think his essay on nationalism is shallow and without merit. Therefore I don’t believe anything in the sense of the Orwellian definition.
Of course you don't! It's a perfectly normal reaction for someone who falls within Orwell's definition of a nationalist.

What I do think is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians have legitimate nationalistic ambitions. Both see nationalism as a means towards independence, self-determination, and self-defense. Unlike you, I don’t condemn them for these very realistic and human needs.
You're using a different definition of nationalism, one that doesn't follow Orwell's definition. If you were honest, I would say that you're talking about patriotism and not nationalism (according to Orwell). But I know that's not really what you believe in, so I won't bother...

Again, you make a charge without substance. Can you give any example where any of us were wrong in our support? If so, argue that.
I don't have to argue about what's bleeding obvious, Mycroft! Why should I? All those on this board that have disagreed with you on the subject of Israel can corroborate my claims. Besides, I feel like treating you the same way you treated The Fool and AUP, with your anti-semitism accusations.



Right, so disagreeing with you too much is bad for the cause. :oldroll:
Ooo, that's an interesting (and very dishonest way) of interpreting what I said!

Except I mentioned Palestinian nationalism in direct response to your bringing up the Orwell essay. To refresh your memory:

http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?postid=1281577#post1281577

The issue of nationalism is directly relevant. You’re the one that introduced it, remember?

Now now, I was talking about your jingoism when I brought that subject up, not the Palestinian's.

Question: does the IDF deliberately target Palestinian civilians? Yes or no.
 
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What I've learnt Mycroft is that there is no convincing some people that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are a danger to Israeli and Palestinian public safety. Everything is a "zionist plot" to expand this dogma or an apartheid warcrime to serve that desire.

Ooo, and now ZN is showing some concern for Palestinian public safety! How interesting! I guess my bitching is having an effect! Does the IDF care about Palestinian public safety, ZN?
 
No. Orwell defines quite precisely what he things patriotism is and what he thinks nationalism is. There is no place for "gut reactions".

Sure, whatever. :oldroll:

Of course you don't! It's a perfectly normal reaction for someone who falls within Orwell's definition of a nationalist.

Except if you read the following paragraph, I don’t:

You're using a different definition of nationalism, one that doesn't follow Orwell's definition. If you were honest, I would say that you're talking about patriotism and not nationalism (according to Orwell). But I know that's not really what you believe in, so I won't bother...

So my “nationalism” is the good kind, by your own admission. Orwell may call it “patriotism” if he wants, but that makes no sense as I am neither Israeli nor Palestinian.

I don't have to argue about what's bleeding obvious, Mycroft! Why should I? All those on this board that have disagreed with you on the subject of Israel can corroborate my claims.

Sure, everyone who disagrees with me can corroborate your belief that I’m wrong. :oldroll: However, you still refuse to cite any specific examples.

Besides, I feel like treating you the same way you treated The Fool and AUP, with your anti-semitism accusations.

I see. So seeking revenge exempts you from being rational. :oldroll:

The difference, of course, is when I told AUP or the Fool they were anti-Semites, I also told them the specific things they said that led me to those conclusions and explained my reasoning. Which is somewhat different from your behavior here.

Ooo, that's an interesting (and very dishonest way) of interpreting what I said!

You’re right. It’s not because I disagree with you, but because I disagree with you too much. You see, what I’m supposed to do is to instantly see the reasonableness of your centrist position and after only mild resistance, change my opinion to yours. I’m supposed to do this even though you haven’t given me any good reason to (by introducing new facts or a well reasoned argument) because it’s just freaking obvious that anyone who takes one side or the other is biased.

Unless they take the left side. That’s not so biased.

Now now, I was talking about your jingoism when I brought that subject up, not the Palestinian's.

And you still won’t give an example of that jingoism.

Question: does the IDF deliberately target Palestinian civilians? Yes or no.

It’s their policy not to. If you want to provide evidence to the contrary, go ahead, but those websites you linked to from HRW and Amnesty International only talk about Palestinians targeting civilians.

Examples:

Palestinian armed groups fired rockets from areas of the Gaza Strip at Israeli civilian settlements and populated areas in Israel close to the border, and carried out seven suicide bombings inside Israel and four around Israeli army checkpoints in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).

While in 2004 the number of Palestinian suicide bombings and similar attacks targeting civilians inside Israel dropped considerably compared to immediately preceding years, neither the Palestinian Authority nor the armed groups responsible have taken any serious steps to act against those who ordered or organized such attacks.

The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity.

Sixty-seven Israeli civilians, including eight children, were killed by Palestinian armed groups in Israel and in the Occupied Territories. Forty-seven of the victims were killed in suicide bombings, the others were killed in shooting or mortar attacks. Most of the attacks were claimed by the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of Fatah, and by the armed wing of Hamas.

Chana Anya Bunders, Natalia Gamril, Dana Itach, Rose Bona and Anat Darom and six other Israelis were killed on 29 January when a Palestinian man blew himself up on a bus in Jerusalem. More than 50 other people were wounded in the attack. The suicide bombing was claimed by both the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the armed wing of Hamas.

Tali Hatuel, who was eight months pregnant, and her four young daughters, Hila, Hadar, Roni and Meirav, aged between two and 11, were shot dead in the Gaza Strip while travelling by car near the Gush Katif settlement block where they lived. They were shot at close range by Palestinian gunmen who had opened fire on their car and caused it to career off the road.

On 28 June, three-year-old Afik Zahavi and 49-year-old Mordechai Yosepov were the first victims of a rocket fired by Palestinian armed groups from the Gaza Strip into the nearby Israeli city of Sderot. On 29 September, four-year-old Yuval Abebeh and two-year-old Dorit Aniso were killed by another Palestinian rocket while playing outside their relatives’ home in Sderot.
 
Weizmann et al made a terrible fuss when the British created Transjordan from the mandated territories. (They made a great fuss previously when the Brits let the French have territory south of the Litani Valley, which the zionists claimed was integral and vital for a viable state in Palestine.) Not all zionists have accepted that British Imperial diktat should apply. You'll recall Ussishkins podium-pounding "A Jewish majority on both banks of the Jordan!" back in 1929, or Ben-Gurion's same statement to the Peel Commission.
And that's all your good for at JREF. This thread is about Rabin, SPECIFICALLY the ten years after Rabin. The current subject in this thread about "the ten years AFTER Rabin" was Arafat's promise to Rabin in his 1993 letter:

the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.
Which the Palestinian Authority under Arafat never did, did they? In fact Capel in 2002 they were caught red-handed importing 50 tons of offensive weaponry from Iran. But, as always, like the posting bot you are it's....Weizmann this, Zionists that, Peel Commission this, Ben Gurion that... it's almost like you are oblivious to the topic at hand and anytime a Middle Eastern thread is created you enter it and begin your tired old posting bot routine of villifying old dead zionists.

The legality of the UN partition is a matter for debate, the immorality of it is undeniable.
UN resolution 181 was voted upon DEMOCRATICALLY at the UN by 56 countries. It was to partition the British Mandate of Palestine...not the Palestinian Mandate of Palestine...not the Arab Mandate of Palestine...not the Jewish Mandate of Palestine...not the Zothyrian Mandate of Palestine...but the British Mandate of Palestine.

33 countries voted in favour, 13 voted against and 10 abstained. But I guess you are right Capel, the immorality of such democracy is undeniable.

Next nutcase please....

Ooo, and now ZN is showing some concern for Palestinian public safety! How interesting! I guess my bitching is having an effect! Does the IDF care about Palestinian public safety, ZN?

And now ladies and gents, observe while Mycroft and his merry band of partisan hacks try to lure the discussion away from Israeli human rights abuses and move it towards Palestinian terrorism! It's the old side-step lets change the subject waltz! It's an amazing feat of illusion! You won't believe your eyes! One question: does the IDF deliberately target Palestinian civilians? Yes or no.
Ok Orwell I see where this is going. So far you have avoided the question put to you four times now like the plague. At this point I think everyone can see that you are not interested in debate or discussion. What you really want to do is expose Israeli human rights abuses.

Well why don't you start a thread about "Israeli human rights abuses" and leave this thread about "Ten years without Yitzhak Rabin". Sound fair? Think about it... if you make your own thread about "Israeli human rights abuses" then your rants would actually be topical.

And this is what debate on the Middle East at JREF has become. Boring and pointless. You could prove that Arafat and the PA tried to smuggle in 50 tons of offensive weapons in 2002 which broke every agreement they signed and nothing...dead silence. Instead the thread becomes just another soap box for a creepy old zionist hater or a soap box for Orwell to expose "Israeli human rights abuses". Neither of which is actually interested in how Palestinian Islamists are endangering Israeli and Palestinian lives or having a very serious effect on peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Frankly it's hopeless. And with that there is no more good to be had in this thread. Have a nice day hating old dead zionists and exposing Israeli human rights abuses....
 
I am not interested in a rational debate with you, Zenith-Nadir and Mycroft, because I don't think that it is possible to have a rational debate with you on the subject of Israel and the Palestinians. On this subject at least, you're partisan hacks, you are not honest debaters.

You obviously don't understand it so I'll explain it to you, here's the deal: my insistence on Israel human rights abuses is just a way to clearly show that you are not honest about this issue. You always find excuses and justifications for it, and you always try to lure people away from the subject, when the subject is debated. The way how you dismiss Israeli human rights abuses exposes your partisan hackery, that's I've been insisting on it. I Mean, it's well documented stuff, widely known, but still you spin it way and avoid the subject...

And Mycroft, you didn't properly justify your accusations of anti-semitism. It was obvious to anyone on the board that the Fool and AUP were not anti-Semites, they were just vehement critics of Israel. Your accusations were unfounded and dishonest. To me, that made it clear that you are not an honest debater.

I'm done here.
 
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I am not interested in a rational debate with you, Zenith-Nadir and Mycroft…

Yes, that’s been obvious from the beginning.

…because I don't think that it is possible to have a rational debate with you on the subject of Israel and the Palestinians. On this subject at least, you're partisan hacks, you are not honest debaters.

You make the debate entirely about your opponents without offering any examples or evidence of our wrongdoings, and you claim we’re the ones not interested in “honest debate”?

You obviously don't understand it so I'll explain it to you, here's the deal: my insistence on Israel human rights abuses is just a way to clearly show that you are not honest about this issue. You always find excuses and justifications for it, and you always try to lure people away from the subject, when the subject is debated. The way how you dismiss Israeli human rights abuses exposes your partisan hackery, that's I've been insisting on it. I Mean, it's well documented stuff, widely known, but still you spin it way and avoid the subject...

In other words, anyone who looks at a part of the issue you don’t like is wrong, dishonest, and a partisan hack. :oldroll:

Well, I’m sorry but the world is just more complex than you want it to be. If HRW wants to write a report about the economic devastation to the Palestinians caused by Israel closing it’s borders, that’s fine, but you don’t get a complete picture unless you understand it was done as a response to the Intifada, where Palestinians were targeting and killing civilians.

Is that and “excuse” or a “justification” that exposes my “partisan hackery”? Well, it may be in your eyes, but to me it’s necessary in seeing the complete picture.

And Mycroft, you didn't properly justify your accusations of anti-semitism. It was obvious to anyone on the board that the Fool and AUP were not anti-Semites, they were just vehement critics of Israel. Your accusations were unfounded and dishonest. To me, that made it clear that you are not an honest debater.

If you feel that way, there are three threads waiting for you in the Flame Forum. In those threads, you are more than welcome to examine the reasons I give for my opinions and to tell me where I’m wrong. In those three threads you are also free to note that none of the issues I raise has anything to do with their criticisms of Israel, but all relate to their criticisms of Jews and Judaism.

Just a warning, we barely scratched the surface of my list before they gave up.

I'm done here.

Of course you are.
 
Orwell, if I start a thread about Israeli food will you join it and ruin it with your childish way of debating?

And I wonder,will the rest of the people here help you in whatever you are doing in this forum that is boring and immature?

This thread is about the late Rabin. If you have nothing to add go wank somewhere else.
 

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