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The Trump Presidency: Sweet/Sweat 16

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uke2se said:
And one step further, let's say the report shows that Trump has committed a flagrant breach of national security, what can be done? Assuming the Senate won't convict and that the GOP critters keep running interference instead of caring about their country.

I guess the question is really "what if the President and his entire party simply stops worrying about following the law?" What's the remedy?
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Ultimately, if the people entrusted with the legal powers to curtail him simply refuse to do so, then only extra-legal means will be available.

At a first step, would hopefully be the various agents and officers in things like the Marshall Service, the Secret Service, and the like, who simply refuse to accept Trump's orders, and act to carry out the lawful orders of the Courts and Congress.

If that fails, you could look to the US military, or ultimately the US citizenry. For all we laugh about "2nd amendment solutions", this is ultimately what it would take. Drag the bastards out and shoot them, and shoot anyone who tries to stop you along the way.

What other solutions could there be?
 
Also there's zero chance that if, some miracle happens and 1/3 of the Republican Senators have a sudden case onset morals and the stars align and the white unicorn appears on in the valley and Trump is impeached that Pence doesn't immediately pardon him for "any and all" things he did.
 
uke2se said:
Not unless you win enough votes to gain a super majority in the Senate while keeping the House, no.
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Even then, it would be Legislative and Judicial against Executive - unless the FBI and Secret Service decide to, in effect, break ranks, there would be a stalemate that only violence could overcome
 
//Grumpy curmudgeon mode on//

Oh before we break out the guillotine and the Guy Fawkes mask we can try an election where more then 50% of the population actually bothers to get off their butts.

//Grumpy curmudgeon mode off//

I hope 2020 sees either a new President or a powershift in the Senate and that we don't get any new SCOTUS judges between then and now.

I still have strong opinions about how it should or can play out if that doesn't happen, but more and more it seems like the narrative as it how it is going to play out is getting more and more... unpleasant.
 
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There was an hilarious but short lived Webcomic called "The Red Line" that took place in George W. Bush's lameduck period between the 2008 election and Obama actually taking office which used clip art of the two Presidents and captions to make funny skits with Bush (usually although he got his moments in now and then) as a buffoonish man-child and Obama as the exasperated straight man.

One of my favorites:

George: "Hey Barack. It's George. Hey when you take over as President can I live in the Guest House?"
Barack: "George I'm not sure if that's the best idea."
George: "Oh come on Barack, I won't get in the way. I promise I won't eat much."
Barack: "George.... what is this really about?"
George: "Fine. I wanna see what the Secret Service does when two Presidents get into a fistfight. I bet they turn on each other."
 
JoeMorgue said:
Also there's zero chance that if, some miracle happens and 1/3 of the Republican Senators have a sudden case onset morals and the stars align and the white unicorn appears on in the valley and Trump is impeached that Pence doesn't immediately pardon him for "any and all" things he did.
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You think so? If you were Trump would you trust Pence to help you out of trouble? As Captain Peacock once said of Mr Rumbold: "If one were drowning he'd be the first to extend an electric cow prod."
 
TragicMonkey said:
You think so? If you were Trump would you trust Pence to help you out of trouble? As Captain Peacock once said of Mr Rumbold: "If one were drowning he'd be the first to extend an electric cow prod."
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Yeah probably. There's versions of it playing it out where I can imagine them throwing Trump to wind and just trying to disown him as much as possible, to try and retcon him into not being a "Real Republican" and all that, but I still see "Protect the party, make this look like a political hit not a legit impeachment" would be much, much more likely.

Pence wouldn't want to deal with Trump's core fanbase without at least putting on a symbolic show of protecting Trump.

But again this is all happening in that fantasy world where Trump being impeached is possible.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Even then, it would be Legislative and Judicial against Executive - unless the FBI and Secret Service decide to, in effect, break ranks, there would be a stalemate that only violence could overcome
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True enough.

That's the mistake your founders made then. You didn't properly separate the powers.
 
JoeMorgue said:
//Grumpy curmudgeon mode on//

Oh before we break out the guillotine and the Guy Fawkes mask we can try an election where more then 50% of the population actually bothers to get off their butts.

//Grumpy curmudgeon mode off//

I hope 2020 sees either a new President or a powershift in the Senate and that we don't get any new SCOTUS judges between then and now.

I still have strong opinions about how it should or can play out if that doesn't happen, but more and more it seems like the narrative as it how it is going to play out is getting more and more... unpleasant.
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The thing is, this deal with the whistle blower report is happening right now. It was deemed serious enough to warrant immediate attention. It's just one of many things that can't wait until january 2021.
 
uke2se said:
True enough.

That's the mistake your founders made then. You didn't properly separate the powers.
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No they just never factored for an agent that was trying to break the system.

There's a subplot in Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor" where Japan as a prelude to launching a war with the US (don't ask, just roll with it) intentionally crashes the US Stock Market by launching a computer virus into a major firm's automated buying/selling program, shorting a huge amount of their stock, causing a run on the market from other automated systems which were programmed to buy if the stock went below a certain amount, which creates total chaos when the virus then deletes the entire day's trading records so nobody knows how much they made or lost that day.

It was something "the system" never accounted for because they never thought to build in a failsafe to someone intentionally losing that much money for seemingly no purpose, because the idea of it being part of a bigger plan never occurred to them. The idea that any "fault" in the market would result in one company coming out on top, not everyone losing.

Same thing here. The checks and balances were set up with the idea that everything that happened "in government" was bigger and above everything else. The idea that someone would intentionally cause damage to the government as concept within the system was never accounted for.

Our current level of rabid tribalism makes it a lot harder, but even now "the system" could adjust for one out of balance power grab. When key people get into positions of power not for the purpose of power but to punish the system for not working for them anymore... that's another thing.

The Trump administration is not a the government equivalent to a greedy business running other companies out of business, it's the government equivalent of a madman running a business into bankruptcy to get back at other businesses.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
No they just never factored for an agent that was trying to break the system.

There's a subplot in Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor" where Japan as a prelude to launching a war with the US (don't ask, just roll with it) intentionally crashes the US Stock Market by launching a computer virus into a major firm's automated buying/selling program, shorting a huge amount of their stock, causing a run on the market from other automated systems which were programmed to buy if the stock went below a certain amount, which creates total chaos when the virus then deletes the entire day's trading records so nobody knows how much they made or lost that day.

It was something "the system" never accounted for because they never thought to build in a failsafe to someone intentionally losing that much money for seemingly no purpose, because the idea of it being part of a bigger plan never occurred to them. The idea that any "fault" in the market would result in one company coming out on top, not everyone losing.

Same thing here. The checks and balances were set up with the idea that everything that happened "in government" was bigger and above everything else. The idea that someone would intentionally cause damage to the government as concept within the system was never accounted for.

Our current level of rabid tribalism makes it a lot harder, but even now "the system" could adjust for one out of balance power grab. When key people get into positions of power not for the purpose of power but to punish the system for not working for them anymore... that's another thing.
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I don't really buy that a system that fails to account for someone gaining power and then not following the rules is a good system. Rule of law is based on enforcement of said laws. If nobody can enforce law, it doesn't exist. I simplified the problem with the US system before. The problem runs much deeper and has to do with political appointments and a mixing of the three branches of government that are supposed to be separate.
 
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uke2se said:
Rule of law is based on enforcement of said laws. If nobody can enforce law, it doesn't exist.
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Oh certainly agree with you in the strongest possible terms there, hence my constant annoyance with the "Well Trump can't do that!" arguments I hear, all of which can be disproven via the "Trump can do anything he wants until someone stops him" experiment of the last 3 years.
 
uke2se said:
The thing is, this deal with the whistle blower report is happening right now. It was deemed serious enough to warrant immediate attention. It's just one of many things that can't wait until january 2021.
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That probably isn't true. Human beings are pretty good at muddling through most things.
 
uke2se said:
I don't really buy that a system that fails to account for someone gaining power and then not following the rules is a good system. Rule of law is based on enforcement of said laws. If nobody can enforce law, it doesn't exist. I simplified the problem with the US system before. The problem runs much deeper and has to do with political appointments and a mixing of the three branches of government that are supposed to be separate.
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There's no question that the American system turned out to be less robust than we thought prior to Trump. However you can't foresee everything, and it's hard to guard against the eventuality that all of the parts of the checks-and-balances are owned by the same ideological group.
 
Belz... said:
There's no question that the American system turned out to be less robust than we thought prior to Trump. However you can't foresee everything, and it's hard to guard against the eventuality that all of the parts of the checks-and-balances are owned by the same ideological group.
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It's like trying to make a legal system fair by giving more power to the prosecutor or the judge or the defense or the jury but never noticing that the judge, jury, defense, and prosecution all root for the same team.

If the parts are interchangeable, rearranging them doesn't matter.
 
Horatius said:
Ultimately, if the people entrusted with the legal powers to curtail him simply refuse to do so, then only extra-legal means will be available.
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Except that President Trump regularly faces legal challenges to his actions, complete with judicial review and quite often a check on his power.

In fact Trump has been pretty good about accepting court rulings against the administration, and going back to re-work things to comply with the rulings of the courts.

At a first step, would hopefully be the various agents and officers in things like the Marshall Service, the Secret Service, and the like, who simply refuse to accept Trump's orders, and act to carry out the lawful orders of the Courts and Congress.
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Congress can't actually give lawful orders to agents of the Executive branch. Separation of powers, remember?

If that fails, you could look to the US military, or ultimately the US citizenry. For all we laugh about "2nd amendment solutions", this is ultimately what it would take. Drag the bastards out and shoot them, and shoot anyone who tries to stop you along the way.

What other solutions could there be?
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I guess it depends on the problem.
 
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