Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

[The Don]

The Duke of Wellington has resigned from the Conservative Party!

Just read that again, the Duke of Wellington!!!!

Here's a Daily Fail article

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-quits-Tories-misery-piles-Boris-Johnson.html

Some key takeaways:

But Wellington, who is married to Antonia von Preussen — a great-granddaughter of Kaiser Wilhelm II, who led Germany into World War I —has appeared a probable defector for some time.

The Kaiser? Of course he's pro-EU !

Unlike his father, who was awarded the Military Cross in World War II and eventually retired as a brigadier, the Duke eschewed the Armed Forces in favour of a business career, becoming a director of tobacco giant Rothmans and chairman of Dunhill, as well as deputy chairman of Vendome Luxury Group.

A coward and aesthete, no wonder he's pro-EU !

Aside from his British dukedom, he holds a number of hereditary continental titles, originally conferred on ‘the Iron Duke’.

In Spain, he is recognised as the Duke of Ciudad Rodrigo. It was at the family’s Spanish estates near Illora, close to Granada, that his youngest daughter, Lady Charlotte, married Colombian-American billionaire Alejandro Santo Domingo in 2016.

He's foreign, no wonder he's pro-EU

 

[BobTheCoward]

I would modify this somewhat - have the referendum be legally binding, and have it enacted after enough time has passed to ensure that no campaign associated with it was fraudulent, like the Leave campaign was last time.

A second referendum is a weird concept. If remain won, there wouldn't have been a second referendum a few years later on remain. If you are collectively stupid, you get twice as much direct democracy than if you are collectively smart.

Don't reward stupid.

 

[Darat]

This doesn't work because:

1. withdrawing from A50 must be done in good faith, not in an attempt to secure more time or a better deal

2. EU won't negotiate a substantially different deal, it has better things to do









You can do that without point 1.







It takes more than one day to carry out any of those, except for Remain.



Although I agree with the referendum, single tranferable vote between No Brexit, May's Deal and Bremain is as good solution as any.



McHrozni

Withdrawing from article 50 is up to the country that evoked it, at the moment we could rerevoke it and next week rererevoke it and then the next week......

 

[lomiller]

. The EU side, so far, haven't shown any signs of being prepared to renegotiate the W.A. they have presented zero new ideas as far as we know.

Why would the EU be presenting new ideas? It’s not up to them to figure out what the UK wants.

Unless and until they are prepared to renegotiate, we know that the existing W.A. stood no chance of passing the existing UK parliament.

It’s not the EU’s responsibility to babysit the UK. If the UK is no longer functionally capable of governing, itself it’s not the EU may not like it but they can’t just step in and do it themselves.

The Benn Bill has given the EU the incentive now to sit on their hands and wait for Remain

More likely the EU has concluded the UK is a basket case and are just separating themselves from it and protecting its own members after a no-deal Brexit.

the only chance now for renegotiation is if the general election returns a leave-supporting government with a good working majority.

A majority won’t change the fact Brexiters can’t agree on what the6y want and are demanding things that are impossible for the EU to provide and/or mutually exclusive of other things the Brexiters are demanding.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

A second referendum is a weird concept. If remain won, there wouldn't have been a second referendum a few years later on remain. If you are collectively stupid, you get twice as much direct democracy than if you are collectively smart.

Don't reward stupid.

In what way would a second referendum be a 'reward'?

 

[Klimax]

Withdrawing from article 50 is up to the country that evoked it, at the moment we could rerevoke it and next week rererevoke it and then the next week......

Not permitted. (Something about "good faith")

 

[Ian Osborne]

A second referendum is a weird concept. If remain won, there wouldn't have been a second referendum a few years later on remain. If you are collectively stupid, you get twice as much direct democracy than if you are collectively smart.

Don't reward stupid.

What's so democratic about following the results of a referendum where the winning side only shaded it, despite an illegal overspend and constant lying? If we leave, because the leave campaign won, I want the easy deal, no downside and £350m a week for the NHS we were promised. If they no longer think they can deliver on these promises, which won them the first referendum, we should get a second vote.

 

[wobs]

What's so democratic about following the results of a referendum where the winning side only shaded it, despite an illegal overspend and constant lying? If we leave, because the leave campaign won, I want the easy deal, no downside and £350m a week for the NHS we were promised. If they no longer think they can deliver on these promises, which won them the first referendum, we should get a second vote.

And reduced immigration?

 

[BobTheCoward]

What's so democratic about following the results of a referendum where the winning side only shaded it, despite an illegal overspend and constant lying? If we leave, because the leave campaign won, I want the easy deal, no downside and £350m a week for the NHS we were promised. If they no longer think they can deliver on these promises, which won them the first referendum, we should get a second vote.

The short answer is because none of those things invalidate the results.

Your counterargument is a poor strategy because it is coming from a position I do not share.

 

[Wudang]

And reduced immigration?

a) we need immigrants to keep the UK economy running

b) the EU allows member states to send immigrants back if they don't earn enough or have enough money amongst other criteria. The UK goverment chose not to use these powers.

 

[Ian Osborne]

The short answer is because none of those things invalidate the results.[/QUOTE

As has been mentioned before, the overspend would've if the referendum had been binding. So we should follow the result purely because we don't have to?

[QUOTEYour counterargument is a poor strategy because it is coming from a position I do not share.

So I can only counter your arguments if I agree with you?

 

[BobTheCoward]

So I can only counter your arguments if I agree with you?

If your goal is to influence me than it won't work using a premise I have previously rejected. If your goal is something else, then you are fine.

 

[Ian Osborne]

If your goal is to influence me than it won't work using a premise I have previously rejected. If your goal is something else, then you are fine.

Then let me put it another way. If Remain had won by cheating, would a second referendum be appropriate then?

 

[lomiller]

It's nothing to do with bullying. It's about negotiating. When you go to buy a car, the car dealer is much richer than you, and they hold all the cars! But you make them your offer, and if they don't accept it you walk away. Miraculously, sometimes as you turn to walk out, they change their minds and accept your offer. This is negotiation 101.

You'll never get a good deal buying a car by telling the salesman that you're going to buy it whatever happens, and then asking for the best deal he can offer.

Sending away your ride so you can tell the dealership “If you don’t sell me this car at a loss have to walk 20 miles to get home” a particularly smart negotiating tactic. The only reason to try it is if you already decided to spend the day walking down the freeway hoping not to be run over.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Then let me put it another way. If Remain had won by cheating, would a second referendum be appropriate then?

I have no opinion on that.

 

[catsmate]

How many times do you need to read this before it sinks in? The Conservatives, after 2017, only had a working majority with DUP support, and the DUP vowed they would never support Mrs May's deal.

And you're back to the lies...

 

[catsmate]

Just struck me that our big time Brexit supporter here seems fine with democracy and rule of law going under in the UK just as long as the UK leaves the EU.

It's fairly classic fascism, a returning viewpoint.

And, I repeat, you have to wonder how widespread in the EU the "we are better off without that gang of idiots" opinion is,behind closed doors.

Very.

 

[catsmate]

What leads you to that conclusion ?

There are plenty of smaller European states that seem to manage just fine. It's true that there are areas of Wales which are among the most deprived in the UK, but they're by no means the most deprived. Then again there are areas, particularly along the M4 corridor which are doing very nicely indeed.

Wales has benefited from EU funding but there is some debate as to whether Wales is a net recipient of EU funding. If UK per capita contributions are considered then Wales may be a net contributor, reports on other studies indicate that it's a net recipient.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/report-claims-wales-gets-245m-11375402

Of course, if an independent Wales was in the EU but England wasn't and was operating on significantly different terms with the EU than it currently does (WTO terms or limited trade deal) then that would have profound effects on the Welsh economy. Some sectors could benefit from work moving from England to Wales as EU companies review their suppliers and other sectors could be hit.

Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre published it's latest report a couple of months ago. It's available from here.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Jeremy Corbyn is putting the final nail in the coffin of avoiding a no-deal Brexit - and of being Prime Minister one day:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49646544

75% of Labour supporters want to Remain. He stands a far greater chance of driving them away than he does of tempting Conservatives and Brexit Party supporters who want Brexit, but not a no-deal Brexit to vote Labour.

I think Corbyn let go of wanting to be PM. Not in the abstract, but with these conditions. He's now on a mission to break the Tories even if it loses him the party leadership post.

 

[Wudang]

I think Corbyn let go of wanting to be PM. Not in the abstract, but with these conditions. He's now on a mission to break the Tories even if it loses him the party leadership post.

Or he falls into the Labour category that I think it was Jim Callaghan described as prefering the ideological purity of opposition to the hard decisions of power. Not that he's done much in the way of opposition.