Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

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Just watched as the Tories were leaving the benches just now. Most of the opposition benches were shouting "Shame! Shame! Shame!", and I am pretty sure someone yelled out "**** you!"
 
Vixen said:
Poor analogy. Your reasoning is defective because the car dealer doesn't hold all the cars. You can just go down the road and find another dealer instead who has a car in your price range.

A better analogy is you club together with 27 other people to buy a Lamborgini, as a pooled car. You decide you don't like the French and German guy laying down the rules so you want out. You threaten to withhold your share of the next instalment unless they allow you to carry on as normal, except the rules are not to apply to you.
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Except the French and German guy never had the power to lay down rules without being able to veto them to begin with, plus a whole bunch of other very specific perks not made for anyone else in the deal. Some bigoted friend didn't like there was any kind of deal with 27 foreigners started spouting off what amount to uninformed conspiracy theories. He would like you to go in with just 2 or 3 other people on a fresh, shiny, new(ly restored) 80s Bentley and maybe rent out some time with other parties in the future as things develop. Hey, just look at how much chlorinated chicken you can fit in the boot!

The U.K. has taken whatever billy club they got all that sweet extra cream topping with and smacked themselves squarely between the eyes with it.
 
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Lothian said:
And that is why it is disgraceful for all those pro brexit MPs who voted to block a deal on leaving the EU. They care nothing for the referendum voters. Oh....wait.... You supported those MPs blocking the deals. Seems you are more than happy to go back on promises when it suits you.
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That's making quite the assumption that the UK voting public had any idea what they were really voting for. I don't think tactical voting would even enter into the mind of most of them.

Anyway, that's why we need another referendum where people can Vote for deal or no deal....

or maybe not.
 
Lothian said:
Here is my solution for solving the issue of Brexit.

1. Withdraw article 50
2. Negotiate a new deal with the EU
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This doesn't work because:
1. withdrawing from A50 must be done in good faith, not in an attempt to secure more time or a better deal
2. EU won't negotiate a substantially different deal, it has better things to do


3. Hold a new referendum with remain, leave on deal, and leave on no deal options. Single transferable vote.
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You can do that without point 1.

4. Enact that result the day after the referendum.
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It takes more than one day to carry out any of those, except for Remain.

Although I agree with the referendum, single tranferable vote between No Brexit, May's Deal and Bremain is as good solution as any.

McHrozni
 
ceptimus said:
It's nothing to do with bullying. It's about negotiating. When you go to buy a car, the car dealer is much richer than you, and they hold all the cars! But you make them your offer, and if they don't accept it you walk away. Miraculously, sometimes as you turn to walk out, they change their minds and accept your offer. This is negotiation 101.
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Yes, indeed. Because there are all those other unions UK could join instead!

Oh wait.

You'll never get a good deal buying a car by telling the salesman that you're going to buy it whatever happens, and then asking for the best deal he can offer.
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UK already had the very best deal EU can make, it recieved special privileges not offered to other members, just so it would join. Then UK decided this was not good enough and threatned to walk away and EU offered further concessions to make the country stay. UK then decided to walk away anyway and asked for a deal. EU offered the very best deal it could offer. UK then said the deal was not good enough, asked for further concessions.

Now the EU says "no, screw you" and is the bad guy, beacuse it refuses to give the best possible deal to UK.

There were many mistakes done in UK-EU relationship. Most of them happened over 40 years ago.

McHrozni
 
dudalb said:
Someone cue "Men Of Harlech"...…

Frankly, I don't think Wales is economically viable on it's own.
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What leads you to that conclusion ?

There are plenty of smaller European states that seem to manage just fine. It's true that there are areas of Wales which are among the most deprived in the UK, but they're by no means the most deprived. Then again there are areas, particularly along the M4 corridor which are doing very nicely indeed.

Wales has benefited from EU funding but there is some debate as to whether Wales is a net recipient of EU funding. If UK per capita contributions are considered then Wales may be a net contributor, reports on other studies indicate that it's a net recipient.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/report-claims-wales-gets-245m-11375402

Of course, if an independent Wales was in the EU but England wasn't and was operating on significantly different terms with the EU than it currently does (WTO terms or limited trade deal) then that would have profound effects on the Welsh economy. Some sectors could benefit from work moving from England to Wales as EU companies review their suppliers and other sectors could be hit.
 
angrysoba said:
My own solution would be, and I am sure the EU would accept it, to go the Norway route. It fulfills the referendum result and does not go beyond. Then it will be up to successive governments to make further changes to the relationship by first campaigning on those ideas in elections.
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That would be a sensible course, though I think that the public should be offered the choice between a Norway deal and remaining in case there are some Brexiteers who would rather remain in the EU than have that kind of deal.

However, sensible left so long ago that no-one can remember what (s)he looked like :(
 
Jeremy Corbyn is reminding people that Boris Johnson is using Brexit to grab power:

Jeremy Corbyn will accuse Boris Johnson later of hijacking the 2016 EU referendum result to shift even more power and wealth to those at the top.

He will tell the Trades Union Congress (TUC) conference in Brighton that a no-deal Brexit would drive down rights and protections for workers.
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So far, so good, I agree.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49643035

Sadly it wouldn't be Jeremy Corbyn without a huge "but....."

Mr Corbyn is also expected to clarify his party's policy on Brexit this week and is expected to rebuff calls from senior figures in the party to campaign unequivocally for Remain.

Instead he will say voters should be able to choose between what he calls a "credible" leave option and staying in the EU.
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******* ! Standing 5m in front of an open goal with one opportunity to score by having a credible Brexit policy and he manages to blast it wide of the corner flag :mad:
 
The Don said:
Jeremy Corbyn is reminding people that Boris Johnson is using Brexit to grab power:



So far, so good, I agree.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49643035

Sadly it wouldn't be Jeremy Corbyn without a huge "but....."



******* ! Standing 5m in front of an open goal with one opportunity to score by having a credible Brexit policy and he manages to blast it wide of the corner flag :mad:
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A bit like Gareth Southgate.

https://youtu.be/3EiE7eLWI_M

I would dispute he 'blasted it'.
 
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ceptimus said:
It doesn't have to be beneficial. It was voted for by a majority in a referendum where the government had promised to implement whatever outcome was voted for.
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What people voted for was leaving with a deal that would be beneficial to the UK - and that's what they voted for because, as was made clear in court, the Leave campaign was fraudulent to the degree that had the referendum been legally binding it would have been deemed invalid. Is that what is being delivered?
 
Lothian said:
Here is my solution for solving the issue of Brexit.

1. Withdraw article 50
2. Negotiate a new deal with the EU
3. Hold a new referendum with remain, leave on deal, and leave on no deal options. Single transferable vote.
4. Enact that result the day after the referendum.
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I would modify this somewhat - have the referendum be legally binding, and have it enacted after enough time has passed to ensure that no campaign associated with it was fraudulent, like the Leave campaign was last time.
 
If anybody here is a fan of Welsh male voice choirs - as am I - there is a wonderful rendition of Plaid Cymru MPs Calon Lân, with harmonies, from last night's progrogation 'protests' in the Commons, if you want to seek out the video, caught on someone's mobile phone.

ETA: Here you are:

https://twitter.com/HannahB4LiviMP/status/1171227464649117697?s=20
 
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