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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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No, I'm not. "The number and placement of drops appears too profuse to be from a cat" is not a hypothesis. "...the drops are wide and diffuse, suggesting that they might not represent drops of pure blood, but rather, blood thinned with water," is a blatant attempt to imply the blood was from Guede's wet trousers or rinsed off hands. Call a spade a spade.



It's clearly an attempt to promote the "it wasn't really cat blood" idea.



I can't find a single photo of the blood droplets on the stairs. Can you?




Can you provide a source for this?



Oh, come on, Numbers. All this boils down to one thing: some people are suggesting that there was a cover up regarding the source of the blood downstairs.



I never made any such denial. I said no evidence of any such analysis has been provided.



It's a reasonable hypothesis IF any evidence whatsoever was presented that the blood drops pattern was, indeed, 'wide and diffuse in such a way as to suggest dilution. No such evidence was provided.



If that were the case here, then I'd expect the defense would have gone after the discrepancies full on. Just as they did with the negative TMB results.

ETA: I think we've beaten this topic into a bloody pulp. Let's get off the merry go round.

I think what we have here is an example of vocabulary conflict.

1. To scientists, "appears" means "seems that way but may or may not be the best model of reality". For example, the statement "the sun appears to move around the earth each day" is true. The better model of reality is that the earth rotates about its axis each day. "Appears" does not mean "is".

2. To scientists, "suggesting" means "consistent with, but there may or may not be other, perhaps even better explanations". It does not mean "is".

3. It clearly is an attempt to provide hypotheses, that if true, would support the proposition that the blood traces are not cat blood and were in fact left by Guede.

4. I believe (meaning I am not certain) that I have seen some of those pictures of blood droplets on the stairs. I haven't looked for a long time and I have never attempted to analyze them.

5. I don't immediately have a source and it doesn't matter to me. If true, it only adds support to my view that analysis of the online photos, rather than of the actual evidence, is not necessarily fruitful. But some are entertained by such analysis and sometimes possibly valid information is found by such analysis.

6. There was a cover-up of the source of the blood downstairs. That is undeniable. The human DNA profiles obtained from the downstairs blood was never shown to the defense by the prosecution; that is a cover-by definition. That does not mean that the DNA profiles obtained were necessarily those of Guede or of Kercher, who each were the sources of DNA in the upstairs flat, or that the downstairs DNA profiles were necessarily relevant to the murder/rape of Kercher.

But it sure is suspicious, especially since much relevant and potentially exculpatory (to Knox and Sollecito) evidence was suppressed. Recall that among the suppressed or intentionally ignored evidence were the following: 1) the DNA profile and thus the identity of the male who deposited the apparent semen stain on the pillow found under Kercher; 2) the full results of the rape kit; 3) almost all the DNA profile controls (negative and positive) which are required in order to fully evaluate the possible extent of contamination in a DNA forensic lab; 4) the machine-generated DNA profiles of each and every profile including controls, which are likewise required to fully understand the results and the possible extent of contamination; 5) the reasons for one or more gaps in the sequential numbering of key DNA specimens, which suggest that there were suppressed initial DNA tests that were then repeated.

7. Hypotheses often come before evidence is gathered. A reasonable hypothesis is one that is not inconsistent with well-accepted prior information. Unreasonable hypotheses are not necessarily incorrect, but often may be incorrect. The problem with these some of these hypotheses about the downstairs blood traces is that they may not be adequately testable with the available online information.

8. The defense had to be careful what it went after and how it went after information. The defense had to give priority to finding the most important information. Lawyers in Italy can be accused of calunnia if they appear to accuse authorities of misconduct, even in court.

9. I don't see much point to continuing the discussion on the issue of the blood traces downstairs. I think readers here should understand that the expression of suspicion about the actions (or inactions) of authorities who have demonstrated misconduct, such as for example suppressing DNA profile test raw data, is not to be considered a "conspiracy theory". It is more an exploration of the possible extent of the misconduct.
 
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9. I don't see much point to continuing the discussion on the issue of the blood traces downstairs. I think readers here should understand that the expression of suspicion about the actions (or inactions) of authorities who have demonstrated misconduct, such as for example suppressing DNA profile test raw data, is not to be considered a "conspiracy theory". It is more an exploration of the possible extent of the misconduct.

Just as an exercise, here is another scenario.

Recall that Stefanoni found, using forensic DNA profiling, that there was human DNA in the alleged cat blood samples from the downstairs flat.

This means that there was human DNA in the sample, either in the alleged cat blood, the surface under the alleged cat blood, or both.

But there is a fourth alternative: the human DNA was a contaminant that entered one or more samples during DNA lab processing. And the most likely source of the human DNA may or may not have been Meredith Kercher, whose reference DNA, obtained in large quantity, would have been tested only days before the alleged cat blood samples.

Stefanoni, recognizing Kercher's DNA in some of the downstairs blood trace samples, in time realized it was a contaminant, we may assume in this scenario. Also, some days later she had found a tiny bit of Kercher's DNA in a profile of a sample obtained from the blade of a knife taken from Sollecito's apartment. This sample actually had no measurable DNA in it according to the quantification (Qubit fluorometer) she had adopted, in place of the accurate and sensitive DNA quantification that was standard procedure, for these particular tests. This knife clearly had Knox's DNA profile in samples on its handle. Thus, she now had the evidence required to satisfy Mignini, although she may well have understood the difficulties with the data.

In order to maintain the apparent (in this case, false) integrity of the case against Knox and Sollecito, she could not release the DNA profiles of the contaminated samples from the downstairs flat blood traces to the defense. And in order to maintain cover, she decided she could not release any of the raw DNA data at all, and should even suppress information on many of the negative and positive controls, including those that showed DNA contamination. She also decided she needed to claim and record, after the DNA testing, that the downstairs flat blood trace samples were tested against antibodies for human, cat, and dog blood and were indeed positive for cat.

Now the above scenario includes speculations about the identity of the DNA profiles of the downstairs flat blood traces based on the speculation that Kercher's DNA contaminated Stefanoni's lab at the relevant time. But Stefanoni's DNA quantification data, as provided to the defense and analyzed on an online site*, did show contamination in several controls. The DNA source of the contamination is unknown, because Stefanoni did not provide any profiles of the controls or any raw DNA data.

However, the scenario provides an explanation for the human DNA that was quantified in the alleged cat blood samples and a rationale for Stefanoni suppressing all the raw DNA data and even quantification data for many controls (negative and positive). While the scenario may not be true, it avoids the suggestion that Guede's DNA profile was obtained in the downstairs flat blood traces as a motivating factor for the raw DNA data suppression.

The scenario is not a conspiracy theory, but an attempt to suggest a rationale to explain why a laboratory would suppress all its raw DNA data in a murder/rape case. In contrast, the Carabinieri DNA lab provided all its data on the knife blade DNA sample it tested; this DNA profile was exculpatory, since none of Kercher's DNA was detected in the sample. In terms of international law - that is, the European Convention on Human Rights and ECHR case-law - convictions that have occurred in cases in which the original or raw data was suppressed and the conviction was based on a copy or interpretation of that data (for example, photocopies of checks rather than originals) have been found in violation of Convention Article 6 (right to a fair trial).

If the raw DNA data from the case were ever released and analyzed by DNA experts (I am not one), there would be a better understanding of what DNA profiles were actually found, including in the blood traces from the downstairs flat.

In any case, it should be recognized that the 2015 acquittal of Knox and Sollecito is indeed final and definitive, and the ECHR judgment in Knox v. Italy states clearly that Knox's defense rights to a lawyer and a fair interpreter were violated in her conviction for calunnia (a violation of Convention Article 6). The ECHR judgment also found that Italy also violated her rights by repeatedly refusing to investigate her claims that she was mistreated by the police during the Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogation (a violation of Convention Article 3).
 
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Vixen has consistently shown disgusting hypocrisy in her posts and attacking Vincini for being crooked and dishonest is an example of this. Vixen slavishly supports and defends crooked and dishonest police/prosecutors who on numerous occasions fed false information to the media, committed perjury, lied in documentation and falsely told Amanda she had HIV.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contamination-labwork-coverup/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-perjury-corruption/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/evidence-destroyed/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/
https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com...old-about-amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11071314#post11071314

Vixen shows dishonesty by lying on an industrial scale in her posts.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11938562#post11938562
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11942852#post11942852
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11598412#post11598412
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11427461#post11427461
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11951893#post11951893
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11982023#post11982023
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12107306#post12107306
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12200863#post12200863
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12297573#post12297573
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12297575#post12297575

Vixen defends dishonest witnesses such as Quintavelle and Curalto who gave false testimony they had seen Amanda and Raffaele. Vixen has no issue with dishonesty when it works against Amanda and Raffaele. If Vincini had been dishonest, Vixen would only object to it because it worked in Amanda and Raffaele’s behaviour. Vixen is being dishonest in her claim that Vincini had resorted to fraud when showing Raffaele could not have left his footprint on the bathmat. If Vincini had used fraud , why didn’t the prosecution make an issue of this and were unable to rebut Vincini’s report. Vixen viciously attacks Amanda and Raffaele for lying and then spread malicious lies about people. Vixen attacks Amanda for falsely accusing Lumumba of a crime and then falsely accuses Vincini of a crime.

The ECH ruled there was zero evidence to support Knox' HIV claims. What a terrible and disgusting accusation to make against a professional doctor, whose job it was to ensure the good health of the inmates. He or she is ethically obliged to pass on the results of any health test. An HIV test is often false-positive and Knox was told this at the time and to await another test.

This character tried to ruined the reputation of a prison doctor.
 
This statement is proof you have no clue what the 2015 Supreme Court ruled.

It did not "overturn" evidence. It ruled, as is its constitutional remit, that the evidence Nencini considered, even if true, should have meant that the pair should have been acquitted.

Back to lurking.

What? 'Knox was definitely at the cottage during the murder of the young Meredith Kercher, did wash her blood from her hands and did accuse Patrick to cover up for Rudy'. Which part of that is 'insufficient evidence'?

There is evidence Knox used the knife to kill and none that Rudy did, yet one received justice the other has not.

Are you PR guys pleased with your results in subverting justice?
 
These records show that Stefanoni claimed to have conducted antibody tests specific for human, cat, and dog on some of the blood samples.

Is there any documentation in the records to show her materials and methods for these tests?

For example, HemaTrace is a product based on antibodies to human used to test whether or not a sample contains human blood. Some police agencies consider it presumptive (meaning additional DNA verification is required to be certain the sample contains human blood). For example (source: https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/forensic-science/Pages/dna-serology.aspx):

"HemaTrace™

The HemaTrace™ test is used to determine if a bloodstain is of human origin. This test is an antigen-antibody reaction. The antibodies are present on the HemaTrace™ card and if the antigen (the heme group of the Hemoglobin molecule) is present, then an antibody-antigen reaction occurs on the test site (T) of the card. The antigens and antibodies bind to each other and form a lattice (chain) which causes a pink dye band to be visible. The control region of the test strip should always have a reaction, and the pink dye band should be visible on both positive and negative results.

Pink line in control region + pink line in test region = presumptively positive result for human blood*.
Pink line in control region only = negative result for human blood.

*Note: both phenolphthalein and Hematrace™ are presumptive tests. Further DNA testing can confirm these results."

However, other sources, such as

http://www.ncids.com/forensic/serology/serology.shtml

consider HematTrace to be confirmatory.

I have found one document (dated 9 December, 2007) that refers to the commercial availability of forensic antibody tests for blood from common non-human species:

"Put in other ways, if an antibody against the human blood antigen comes into contact with a substance containing human blood, the reaction produces a visible line of precipitation, or solid substance between the two solutions. If there is no chemical reaction that produces a precipitate, then the ME can conclude that the blood is not human.

The modern day forensics laboratory contains various antiserums of common animal bloods. Sheep, cow, deer, wolf, and cat antiserums are commercially available. Using these antiserums, a criminalist can determine what species shed the blood."

Source: https://ezinearticles.com/?Forensic-Blood-Testing---Determining-If-Blood-Is-Human&id=873233

Perhaps Stefanoni had such non-human blood antibody tests available. Do her records indicate the specifics of her materials and methods?

In contrast to her records for the DNA testing, which show the materials and methods to some extent - at least she listed the equipment used, for example, in some cases, extraction by "BioRobot "EZ1" (QIAGEN)" and quantification by "7700 Sequence Detector ABI Prism" from "Applied Biosystems", there is no identification of the source for the human, cat, or dog blood antibodies allegedly used. In forensics, the failure to show the source of materials not commonly available (such as cat or dog blood antibody) must lead to questions about the credibility and reliability of the alleged testing.

Stefanoni:

1. knows more about forensic tests than you do
2. was aware the specks of blood downstairs were reasonably thought to be from the cats' ears as the boys did report this was a problem they had been aware of before they went away for the weekend
3. knew there are a million and one things you can test for. Her team had to pinpoint a strategy of analysing what was salient. There were almost 500 physical exhibits. Enough for a conviction. That is all that is required by the court.
 
Once again, you fail to present the requested citation for a claim. I guess we'll just have to add this to the dung heap of other false claims you've made. You'd think you'd learn...

Actually, it wasn't Guede who claimed this it was some guy called 'Free Rudy Guede' on Twitter. Certianly a chair had been pulled to the window and one can speculate that someone did so to look out of the bathroom window. What did it overlook? The car park.

Someone was was definitely in there - either one of the three - as I can't imagine Mez did anything more downstairs than feed the cat or water the plants. There wasn't anyone for her to frolic on Bonassi's bed with.
 
[/HILITE]

Of course they didn't. No one went downstairs that night, including Guede.

You cannot know that. Koko claimed to have caught the three in the act of lying in wait for Mez behind the bins and there is an area there for the bins. There is a blank couple of hours after the pair left the cottage circa 4:00; who knows what they were up to. Might well have hid downstairs.

Truth is, not only did Guede report hearing a thud, Knox did, too, as did Kokomani.
 
Regarding the theory that Guede went downstairs the night of the murder: Guede concocted a story to explain almost every piece of evidence he knew existed/could exist in the upstairs apartment. From explaining the feces in the bathroom, to the towels in the bedroom, to his DNA on Meredith, to his fingerprints, to his bloody shoe prints, to the smear on the wall, to drinking out of the juice bottle, etc...he thought he covered it all. But he never mentioned going downstairs. Where, if you believe he did, he left blood...possibly his from his cut hand... all over. Why did he fail to make up a story to cover any of this?

My mistake: it was Knox and Raff who were alleged to be downstairs by an armchair detective.
 
The ECH ruled there was zero evidence to support Knox' HIV claims. What a terrible and disgusting accusation to make against a professional doctor, whose job it was to ensure the good health of the inmates. He or she is ethically obliged to pass on the results of any health test. An HIV test is often false-positive and Knox was told this at the time and to await another test.

This character tried to ruined the reputation of a prison doctor.

Really? That's what they ruled, is it? You wouldn't care to present evidence of this, would you? How about a quote from the ECHR judgment concerning this alleged ruling about the HIV claims?

What false accusations did she make against the doctor, Vix? Exactly how did she try to ruin the doctor's reputation? Even you admit Knox said the doctor told her it could be a false positive. She made no false allegations against the doctor so just Stop Lying.
 
You cannot know that. Koko claimed to have caught the three in the act of lying in wait for Mez behind the bins and there is an area there for the bins. There is a blank couple of hours after the pair left the cottage circa 4:00; who knows what they were up to. Might well have hid downstairs.

There is no evidence of anyone going downstairs that night.

KOKO? KOKO? Bwwaaaaaahaaaahaaaaa!



Truth is, not only did Guede report hearing a thud, Knox did, too, as did Kokomani.

Oh, do tell! Please provide the quotes from Knox and Kokomani hearing a thud from the downstairs apartment the night of Nov 1. Enquiring minds want to know!
 
What? 'Knox was definitely at the cottage during the murder of the young Meredith Kercher, did wash her blood from her hands and did accuse Patrick to cover up for Rudy'. Which part of that is 'insufficient evidence'?

There is evidence Knox used the knife to kill and none that Rudy did, yet one received justice the other has not.

Are you PR guys pleased with your results in subverting justice?

Hahahahahahahaha! Oh, Vix....you just slay me! It's not 'insufficient evidence'...it's just not accurate.

Damn, we're PR guys and I didn't get any of that $2 million? Darn that David Marriott for dying before I could confront him!
 
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Actually, it wasn't Guede who claimed this it was some guy called 'Free Rudy Guede' on Twitter. Certianly a chair had been pulled to the window and one can speculate that someone did so to look out of the bathroom window. What did it overlook? The car park.

This is getting even more hysterical! You're actually giving credence to some guy on "Free Rudy Guede" on Twitter?!:eek: Oh, Vix....learn when to quit.

Someone was was definitely in there - either one of the three - as I can't imagine Mez did anything more downstairs than feed the cat or water the plants. There wasn't anyone for her to frolic on Bonassi's bed with.

 
Actually, it wasn't Guede who claimed this it was some guy called 'Free Rudy Guede' on Twitter. Certianly a chair had been pulled to the window and one can speculate that someone did so to look out of the bathroom window. What did it overlook? The car park.

Someone was was definitely in there - either one of the three - as I can't imagine Mez did anything more downstairs than feed the cat or water the plants. There wasn't anyone for her to frolic on Bonassi's bed with.

The entire downstairs is below the car park.
 
Rolfe,

Can you elaborate on this? I recall looking into this casually a few years ago, but I do not recall all of the details.

quick search gives this...

For example in humans the percentage of glucose in the red blood cells is 42%, whereas 58% of the glucose is situated in plasma. In cats (less and smaller red blood cells) there is only 7% of the glucose in the red blood cells and the majority of about 93% of the glucose is located in plasma.
 
What? 'Knox was definitely at the cottage during the murder of the young Meredith Kercher, did wash her blood from her hands and did accuse Patrick to cover up for Rudy'. Which part of that is 'insufficient evidence'?

There is evidence Knox used the knife to kill and none that Rudy did, yet one received justice the other has not.

Are you PR guys pleased with your results in subverting justice?

If nothing else, you're caught in a feedback loop.

We were talking about your double standard. You claim that the Supreme Court cannot throw out evidence. Yet you also claim that the Supreme Court threw out the Conti-Vecchiotti report, which BTW it hadn't.

Now you're back to banging on the "she was there" drum. For the 780th time, the Supreme Court said that all the evidence in front of the Nencini court proved, even if true, was that they'd been in another part of the cottage at a later time.

I'm sure we'll be around your feedback loop again.
 
Rolfe,

Can you elaborate on this? I recall looking into this casually a few years ago, but I do not recall all of the details.


The cells are very different. I'm not really up to speed with how you handle a dried blood spot to get the information as I'm used to handling whole liquid blood, but the cells are there in the blood spot and it should be possible to reconstitute it so as to allow some analysis.

Human red cells are about twice the size of cat red cells. There are also significant differences in the white cells, especially the eosinophils. It's not rocket surgery.
 
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