There Will be Blood: Boston's Straight Pride Parade.

[cullennz]

The think to keep in mind with all this "Schroedinger's Nazi" nonsense, is that there is a very clear and obvious reason why it's occurring, that isn't really being addressed. That the "Schroedinger's Nazi" people have a vested interest in creating this false distinction, it's not just random denialism or "skepticism".

That reason is cognitive dissonance.

They know that Nazis are evil, or at least that the overwhelming majority of society considers Nazis evil, and have the history of mass murder on an unprecedented scale to demonstrate how evil they are.

However, in the case of neo-Nazis and others in the so-called alt.right, they also see parts of themselves. They can see the similarities in worldview and philosophy, shared beliefs if not necessarily shared goals. They are unhappy with the changes that are going on in the world, with louder voices being given to marginalized groups, with their own comfortable privileges being challenged; and they are not happy with that. Change is difficult, and they feel like they're losing something important to them. The status quo is being torn down, and with it their social standing.

So when they hear the neo-Nazis and KKK and other white supremacists and nationalists and fascists going on about the same thing, only taken to a much more violent and sinister level, this also makes them uncomfortable. They can see the logical links to their worldview and the fascists' worldivew. But in their minds they cannot be similar, because they are the "Good Guys" and the Nazis were the "Bad Guys"; and of course no one believes themselves to be the "Bad Guys". They can't believe themselves to be the "Bad Guys".

So since they do not wish to be associated with the fascists, that presents them with two options: 1) to change their own worldview, or 2) deny the existence of the fascists. Changing one's worldview is extremely difficult to do, and they don't really have any desire to do so since it's so deeply ingrained in them. Few people ever really change the worldview they were raised in; at least not quickly, and rarely completely.

So the other option is to deny the neo-Nazis. Obviously they cannot deny the obvious evidence that everyone can see (unless they're Trump), cannot deny the people walking around with swastika armbands, cross-and-shield, white hood, etc. But what they can do is deny said peoples' links to the Nazi worldview, the historical KKK, and so on. They downplay the link, try to deny the heritage; and in doing so come up with dissonant distortions of logic accusing the fascists of being "cosplayers", "edgelord trolls", "No True Nazis", and so on. Denying that these people really understand or believe in the images and philosophies that they're "playing at".

And, of course, in order to maintain this state of mind, they must also denounce and deride those who stand up to and oppose the fascists. If someone treats the fascists as a real threat, as truly believing in and practicing the fascist white supremacist worldview, that threatens their own logical balancing act and forces them to take the neo-Nazis seriously, which their self-image will not allow them to do. So the anti-fascists become the true enemies, and must be demonized and ascribed the qualities of those they are opposing in order to maintain the facade.

Thus they resolve their cognitive dissonance and preserve their own worldview, without having to resort to uncomfortable and difficult self-examination in the face of growing evidence. They get to keep seeing themselves as "Good Guys", despite their clear similarities to the "Bad Guys".

And then you get people who are overly paranoid about a bunch of dickheads.

 

[kellyb]

There are, I believe, very very few actual Nazis running around, and a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's when compared to the over-the-top genocidal accusations.

What's the difference between a modern "actual nazi" (however rare) and the "poser" neonazis, in your mind?

 

[kellyb]

And then you get people who are overly paranoid about a bunch of dickheads.

I'm fine with erring on the side of caution with these people. The English-speaking world was apparently insufficiently paranoid in the 30's.

The people who say that Hitler is Antichrist, or alternatively, the Holy Ghost, are nearer an understanding of the truth than the intellectuals who for ten dreadful years have kept it up that he is merely a figure out of comic opera, not worth taking seriously. All that this idea really reflects is the sheltered conditions of English life. The Left Book Club was at bottom a product of Scotland Yard, just as the Peace Pledge Union is a product of the Navy. One development of the last ten years has been the appearance of the ‘political book,’ a sort of enlarged pamphlet combining history with political criticism, as an important literary form. But the best writers in this line-Trotsky, Rauschning, Rosenberg, Silone, Borkenau, Koestler and others-have none of them been Englishmen, and nearly all of them have been renegades from one or other extremist party, who have seen totalitarianism at close quarters and known the meaning of exile and persecution. Only in the English-speaking countries was it fashionable to believe, right up to the outbreak of war, that Hitler was an unimportant lunatic and the German tanks made of cardboard.

Lesson learned.

 

[Thermal]

What's the difference between a modern "actual nazi" (however rare) and the "poser" neonazis, in your mind?

Power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate versus phallicly challenged white power punks seeking Facebook likes and trolling.

Eta: I don't think we should give thm the dignity of political protection. Fascism may have that. Gutter losers don't

 

[kellyb]

Power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate versus phallicly challenged white power punks seeking Facebook likes and trolling.

Eta: I don't think we should give thm the dignity of political protection. Fascism may have that. Gutter losers don't

I'm pretty sure those white power punks are "power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate".

What makes you think they're not?

 

[Thermal]

I'm pretty sure those white power punks are "power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate".

What makes you think they're not?

Zero sign of it. Anyone putting Richard Spencer on the ballot? Does Identity Evropa work the voter registration drives? Jovi Val running for Pres? Proud boys philosophizing on systems of governance on street corners?

Again, it's probably impossible to talk about 'neo nazis' in the abstract; they're all over the place. Who specifically do you have in mind?

 

[Elagabalus]

What's the difference between a modern "actual nazi" (however rare) and the "poser" neonazis, in your mind?

One who also identifies as a "Super Happy Fun American"?

....In June, a group calling itself Super Happy Fun America announced it was planning a Straight Pride Parade in Boston...

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/1/18761623/straight-pride

 

[Sideroxylon]

Zero sign of it. Anyone putting Richard Spencer on the ballot? Does Identity Evropa work the voter registration drives? Jovi Val running for Pres? Proud boys philosophizing on systems of governance on street corners?

Again, it's probably impossible to talk about 'neo nazis' in the abstract; they're all over the place. Who specifically do you have in mind?

The current administration is doing a perfectly fine job at delivering for them.

 

[Carlotta]

Stupid derail with another hyperlink no one is going to click.

Try, you might learn something!!!

 

[kellyb]

The current administration is doing a perfectly fine job at delivering for them.

Kinda what I was thinking. The Republican Party in general, really:

Corey Stewart, Virginia’s Republican Senate candidate...endorsed Paul Nehlen, an anti-*Semite and self-*described “pro-white” candidate who ran unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination for outgoing House Speaker Paul Ryan’s seat.

Heil no: In March, a 70-year-old neo-Nazi named Arthur Jones ran unopposed to become the Republican candidate for Illinois’ 3rd Congressional District. The state GOP distanced itself from Jones, a Holocaust denier who said he was running against the “two-party, Jew-party, queer-party system.”

John Fitzgerald, the Republican candidate in California’s 11th District,...has offered a $5,000 reward to anyone who can prove the Holocaust really happened and has written blog posts like “Why Are Powerful Jews Pushing Mass Immigration and Forced Multiculturalism Throughout the U.S. and Europe?”

On his radio show, Steve West, a candidate for the Missouri House of Representatives, has made racist and anti-Semitic statements such as, “Hitler was right about what was taking place in Germany and who was behind it.”

Bunch more in the full article:
https://www.motherjones.com/politic...s-conspiracy-theorists-republican-candidates/

 

[Carlotta]

The good news in Virginia is that we still have our Democratic senators!

 

[johnny karate]

Power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate

one who espouses the beliefs and policies of the German Nazis

Hmm... who’s right? Merriam Webster or some random person on the internet...

Tough call.

 

[Minoosh]

The point is the government has always had that power. I don't know what you aren't getting about this. The SCOTUS can easily translate what they're saying into hate speech, and make it illegal.

No, it can't. Hate speech is protected speech.

The last ruling was in 2017 and it's not a near thing; the ruling was unanimous.

 

[kellyb]

In the USA I believe it is currently illegal to be a member of ISIS, to promote ISIS, to advocate for ISIS, to aid and abet ISIS.

Why is that? Is it because of the aims, the goals, the actions of ISIS? Of course it is. Nazis should be treated the same way we treat members of ISIS, those that advocate for Nazism, that support Nazis should be treated the same way.

Actually, I think you can "promote ISIS", etc, and the government will only bust you for making a bomb, or they trick you into making a bomb, or arrest you if you're trying to travel overseas to literally fight with ISIS, or something like that.

The only prosecuted terrorists I know of are cases like these:
https://shadowproof.com/2016/12/05/...ing-terrorism-plots-reaffirmed-appeals-court/

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/ohio-man-sentenced-15-years-prison-trying-join-isis

Just declaring yourself a member, or saying "I think ISIS is cool and misunderstood, and mostly right" won't do it.

ISIS is also different because it's an armed force we're currently at actual war with.

 

[uke2se]

Thanks for clarifying. We're on the same page, but damned if I can figure out what book you're reading.

I say yes, and probably half, if not the majority. People tend to be full of ****.

Ever see someone wearing a cross? Do you think that means they endorse every tenet, even the most extreme, of Christianity? I don't. Many only practice out of habit, or because it benefits them in some other way, like socially. No actual connection to their 'faith'.

Ever see someone who sports a Confederate flag tattoo? You think that means they actually want to enslave people? I know some edgy 'I'm a Rebel!' types who have one. They are not down-low wannabe slavers.

I don't think someone else's identification has to align with my understanding of that identification.

Please present one person who identifies as a Nazi and opposes genocide in any form.

 

[uke2se]

I wonder if we could come up with an acronym for your new technique, this Psychoanalysis Of Online Posters?

It's called psychoanalysis. There have been studies done on this. That you would label it "poop" shows immaturity and quite a bit of insecurity in your own position.

 

[dann]

Please present one person who identifies as a Nazi and opposes genocide in any form.

Thermal is thinking of people who have no idea what National Socialism was and is and who just use the Swastika to show 'the squares' how tough they are. Some biker gangs used to do that back in the 1960s and '70s, and we've already heard more than enough about the Surf Nazi.
In many ways, examples like this are similar to Baylor's example with prince Harry, who attended a fancy dress party wearing what was supposed to look like a Nazi uniform.

So let's take their childish objections seriously and tell them that, yes, you can dress up to look like a Nazi without being one, but if you're at a rally organized by Nazis and not at a fancy dress ball wearing Nazi insignia, it's very unlikely that you're not a Nazi.
Thermal ought to know better ...

 

[dann]

Hmm... who’s right? Merriam Webster or some random person on the internet...

Tough call.

By now, you ought to know that Thermal will object to the definition, "one who espouses the beliefs and policies of the German Nazis," because American Nazis can't be Nazis since they want to make America great again, not Germany. And unless you think that it would be a good idea to annex the Sudetenland and invade England, Poland, France and Russia, you can't even be a real German Nazi. And since Russia was the Soviet Union back then and the USSR no longer exists, National Socialism has been rendered impossible!

 

[dann]

PS

Please present one person who identifies as a Nazi and opposes genocide in any form.

Some of the khaki boys are more than willing to say that they oppose genocide in any form. Thermal sees this as an opportunity to trivialize Alt-Right and Alt-Lite, which is exactly what they want you to do:

According to Oren Segal of the Anti-Defamation League, the alt-lite "operates in the orbit of the alt right", and it sometimes may not be possible to tell the difference between the groupings as there is significant cross-over. Others have described it as an offshoot of the alt-right, in that it claims to reject identity politics—including the white nationalism and racialism of the alt-right—though they share other key features and beliefs.
Alt-lite (Wikipedia)

 

[ponderingturtle]

Was Mr Dora a nazi?

I call myself a Prince among men. Am I?

How about saying you are a christian? Of course so many people say they are christians with out being christians like the catholic church.