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There Will be Blood: Boston's Straight Pride Parade.

In another thread, I have already mentioned the Danish stage director Sam Besekow (Wikipedia), the son of Jewish immigrants, who studied theatre history in Munich and Berlin in 1930. He used to tell the story of his old landlady, who liked the young student and invited him to a meeting organized by the Nazis. When he declined, telling her that he was a Jew, the landlady didn't take his no for an answer but insisted that he should come because, "We will be so much more pleased to have you there!"
I.e. she was unaware of purpose of the party of which she was a member.
So yes, there actually are (and were) people like that, but they were obviously few and far between, and after the Nazis took power in Germany, it became increasingly difficult to be ignorant or in denial about what they were.

Another example that I've mentioned before is Hans J. Massaquoi, author of the autobiography Destined to Witness - Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany (Wikipedia), who writes about the time when he wanted to join the Hitler Jugend and wore the Swastika until a Nazi teacher took it from him.

I can recommend the mini series - with subtitles in English:



So we get it! There have been at least two ignorant 'Nazis', the old landlady and a young boy, and there are probably more, but why is it so important to you to stress this fact when 99.9% of people calling themselves Nazis, wearing Nazi symbols and attending Nazi rallies are actual Nazis?
Do you want to make an actual point??!

That is not at all the point I have been sledgehammering. My point is to not hyperbolize a serious description.

Think about it. You have evidently made no attempt to understand my posts, if that is your takeaway. My point is to be realistic if you want credibility. There are, I believe, very very few actual Nazis running around, and a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's when compared to the over-the-top genocidal accusations. We get more points for accuracy than hyperbole
 
My wife sometimes yells 'Thermal Thermal you're my cowboy' Does that count?

You are still being evasive, ignoring half the things said to quibble about the low hanging fruit. My position is that someone saying they are a nazi does not have to align with our understanding of the implications. It would be more accurate to identify who our self identified Nazis are and examine their adherence to ideology. That would eliminate the Miki Dora and Jovi Val possible false positives. Fair?

Eta: to answer your question: I say I am. I do not adhere to the ideology. Cowboy or nah?
I've been consistent in my views if when someone says they are a Nazi I will accept that they follow/adheres to/supports the ideology of Nazism.

You are the one that has been all other the place, claiming for example Nazism has changed its core ideology sometime in the 21st century, and then when asked to support that walked away from it.

I have no idea why you are fighting so much for people to consider those that call themselves Nazis as not being Nazis.

You have made no coherent argument that self labelled Nazis should not be considered Nazis.
 
I've been consistent in my views if when someone says they are a Nazi I will accept that they follow/adheres to/supports the ideology of Nazism.

And I keep saying those are two different things. I say I'm a cowboy. I do not follow the cowboy ideology. You evidently refuse to accept this possibility. Is that the impasse?

You are the one that has been all other the place, claiming for example Nazism has changed its core ideology sometime in the 21st century, and then when asked to support that walked away from it.

I'm consistent if you read for comprehension instead of ignoring points to focus on rhetoric. Nazi core ideology is a political objective from the early twentieth century Germans. Times have changed, and so has the meaning and ideology.

have no idea why you are fighting so much for people to consider those that call themselves Nazis as not being Nazis.

You have made no coherent argument that self labelled Nazis should not be considered Nazis.

Then you haven't been reading.

Ideology has changed: I could probably said usage or meaning has changed. Is that clearer? As the base meaning changed across time, the core ideology would of course be different too. If the meaning hadn't changed, we would still be limited to the German party in the 30's. You do accept that the actual, literal meaning has broadened and changed, yes?
 
That is not at all the point I have been sledgehammering. My point is to not hyperbolize a serious description.

Think about it. You have evidently made no attempt to understand my posts, if that is your takeaway. My point is to be realistic if you want credibility. There are, I believe, very very few actual Nazis running around, and a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's when compared to the over-the-top genocidal accusations. We get more points for accuracy than hyperbole


I didn't know that this was a game of getting points, but what are the points that we get and when and how do we get them? Why are you so afraid that "a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's" might be confused with the allegedly "very very few actual Nazis running around"?! If the allegedly not-so-bad losers are actually ignorant about what constitutes Nazism, why would it be so bad to criticize National Socialism and make it clear to them what it is?
It would have been the way to go with both the old landlady and the young colored boy: 'Let me tell you why you shouldn't wear a Swastika: It's because ...'
Are you afraid they might get egged?! Wouldn't that be the perfect occasion to explain to them why they were egged if they haven't yet understood what National Socialism is about?
 
I didn't know that this was a game of getting points, but what are the points that we get and when and how do we get them? Why are you so afraid that "a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's" might be confused with the allegedly "very very few actual Nazis running around"?! If the allegedly not-so-bad losers are actually ignorant about what constitutes Nazism, why would it be so bad to criticize National Socialism and make it clear to them what it is?
It would have been the way to go with both the old landlady and the young colored boy: 'Let me tell you why you shouldn't wear a Swastika: It's because ...'
Are you afraid they might get egged?! Wouldn't that be the perfect occasion to explain to them why they were egged if they haven't yet understood what National Socialism is about?

I don't think not understanding is their problem.
 
I accept that people who label themselves Nazis are Nazis.

Me too

DLbsRHg.png
 
Me too

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/DLbsRHg.png[/qimg]

He’s an entitled idiot with a worldview laden with racism.

Jovanni Valle is an alt-right **** head who flaunts Nazi symbols while spewing racism.

There is a distinction. Bit more grey when I think about it but a distinction none the less. They can both get ******.
 
Overall, here's the thing...

if you're okay with letting the fascists march, rally, and so forth, this is the message you send: We're okay with you stomping our opponents.

Best to stomp this out, by all means. I'm not saying it's necessarily violent. But I will say that it's sometimes needed. the 4channers need to understand "if you bring this garbage to the streets, you will be hurt, and then shamed, rendered unemployable."

And if you get stomped in the streets, oh well. If you're shouting slurs and get doxxed, good. I hope you lose your job, your career is ruined.

Like MOP yells, Ante up!
 
Not sure it matters, according to this cat:



Following the ideology is one thing, and I would agree with your take. Just saying ' I'm a nazi LOL', or even without the LOL,is a much lower standard that can be taken a variety of ways.

I'm a cowboy. Am I?

Saying I'm a Nazi and going on a Nazi-organised march, I'll accept their claims.
 
Overall, here's the thing...

if you're okay with letting the fascists march, rally, and so forth, this is the message you send: We're okay with you stomping our opponents.

Best to stomp this out, by all means. I'm not saying it's necessarily violent. But I will say that it's sometimes needed. the 4channers need to understand "if you bring this garbage to the streets, you will be hurt, and then shamed, rendered unemployable."

And if you get stomped in the streets, oh well. If you're shouting slurs and get doxxed, good. I hope you lose your job, your career is ruined.

Like MOP yells, Ante up!

This attitude ends up working both ways.

As long as you are happy with the racist idiots disagreeing with you and stomping on your lot then while I disagree with it, go for it.
 
So you're saying Prince Harry wants to kill Darat.


Me too

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/DLbsRHg.png[/qimg]


It's too bad that Baylor doesn't understand the difference between labeling oneself as something and dressing up as something for a costume ball. He probably thinks that people in pirate costumes are actual pirates ...
 
Overall, here's the thing...

if you're okay with letting the fascists march, rally, and so forth, this is the message you send: We're okay with you stomping our opponents.

Best to stomp this out, by all means. I'm not saying it's necessarily violent. But I will say that it's sometimes needed. the 4channers need to understand "if you bring this garbage to the streets, you will be hurt, and then shamed, rendered unemployable."

And if you get stomped in the streets, oh well. If you're shouting slurs and get doxxed, good. I hope you lose your job, your career is ruined.

Like MOP yells, Ante up!

I'm not sure if this is agreeing or disagreeing, but I'd say we do have to let them march, if we really believe in our concept of free speech.

But we also believe that mutual fighting is just a petty disorderly persons offence, so have at it. Some misdemeanors are worth it.
 
It's too bad that Baylor doesn't understand the difference between labeling oneself as something and dressing up as something for a costume ball. He probably thinks that people in pirate costumes are actual pirates ...

Nazi apologist dann apologizing for Nazis. Exactly what I expect from a white supremacist who constantly spams "lists" purporting the supremacy of white countries.

If someone is a Nazi I take his word for it I don't buy the "lol jk bro" excuse like you do.
 
Saying I'm a Nazi and going on a Nazi-organised march, I'll accept their claims.


The think to keep in mind with all this "Schroedinger's Nazi" nonsense, is that there is a very clear and obvious reason why it's occurring, that isn't really being addressed. That the "Schroedinger's Nazi" people have a vested interest in creating this false distinction, it's not just random denialism or "skepticism".

That reason is cognitive dissonance.

They know that Nazis are evil, or at least that the overwhelming majority of society considers Nazis evil, and have the history of mass murder on an unprecedented scale to demonstrate how evil they are.

However, in the case of neo-Nazis and others in the so-called alt.right, they also see parts of themselves. They can see the similarities in worldview and philosophy, shared beliefs if not necessarily shared goals. They are unhappy with the changes that are going on in the world, with louder voices being given to marginalized groups, with their own comfortable privileges being challenged; and they are not happy with that. Change is difficult, and they feel like they're losing something important to them. The status quo is being torn down, and with it their social standing.

So when they hear the neo-Nazis and KKK and other white supremacists and nationalists and fascists going on about the same thing, only taken to a much more violent and sinister level, this also makes them uncomfortable. They can see the logical links to their worldview in the fascists' worldivew. But in their minds they cannot be similar, because they are the "Good Guys" and the Nazis were the "Bad Guys"; and of course no one believes themselves to be the "Bad Guys". They can't believe themselves to be the "Bad Guys".

So since they do not wish to be associated with the fascists, that presents them with two options: 1) change their own worldview, or 2) deny the existence of the fascists. Changing one's worldview is extremely difficult to do, and they don't really have any desire to change it since it's so deeply ingrained, its something they've believed since they were old enough to have beliefs. Few people ever really change the worldview they were raised in; at least not quickly, and rarely completely.

So the other option is to deny the neo-Nazis. Obviously they cannot deny the obvious evidence that everyone can see (unless they're Trump), cannot deny the existence of people walking around with swastika armbands, cross-and-shield, white hood, etc. But what they can do is deny said peoples' links to the Nazi worldview, the historical KKK, and so on. They downplay the link, try to deny the heritage; and in doing so come up with dissonant distortions of logic accusing the fascists of being "cosplayers", "edgelord trolls", "No True Nazis", and so on. Denying that these people really understand or believe in the images and philosophies that they're "playing at".

And, of course, in order to maintain this state of mind, they must also denounce and deride those who stand up to and oppose the fascists. If someone treats the fascists as a real threat, as truly believing in and practicing the fascist white supremacist worldview, that threatens their own logical balancing act and forces them to take the neo-Nazis seriously, which their self-image will not allow them to do. So the anti-fascists become the true enemies, and must be demonized and ascribed the qualities of those they are opposing in order to maintain the facade.

Thus they resolve their cognitive dissonance and preserve their own worldview, without having to resort to uncomfortable and difficult self-examination in the face of growing evidence. They get to keep seeing themselves as "Good Guys", despite their clear similarities to the "Bad Guys".
 
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I wonder if we could come up with an acronym for your new technique, this Psychoanalysis Of Online Posters?
 
Very similar to the distinction people people make between bad nationalism and good patriotism ...
 

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