There Will be Blood: Boston's Straight Pride Parade.

[uke2se]

Hyperbole, not strawman. Similar, but it doesn't alter the essence of your claim to make it easier to attack.



You're a liar. I never made any such statement, 'this time' or any other.

Keep it up, you're doing great.



Right. 'Bless your heart', I believe you closed with? It's me reading into things

Also, sorry about the tone of my last two posts. You flashed me back to skinhead problems from my younger days, and your 'poor me' stories brought the taste of my own blood in my mouth back.

eta: and I tried, yet again, to engage you productively. And you respond, yet again with snottiness. Why in the world post in a discussion when you are only interested in the 'dissing'? There's a whole 'cussion' that could be benificial to both of us, and others.

In this post you give the impression that you're not very impressed with tales of immigrants and PoC being targeted by Nazis for abuse and assault. Is that a correct interpretation?

 

[dann]

For any fan club of X, it seems safe to assume they're fans of what X is best known for until some compelling evidence to the contrary comes up.

It's a little-known fact that most Nazis joined the party because Adolf was so fond of flowers: Adolf Hitlers Lieblingsblume ist das schlichte Edelweiss

 

[Mumbles]

It is really so hard to imagine that these sweeping power you suggest would be used for injustice? We currently have a president who is sympathetic to right wing radical politics. Trump wields the vast power of the state while progressives suggest that that same state should save us from right wing extremists. RBG's frail health is all that stands between us and a 6-3 right wing SCOTUS for a generation. Right wingers are fervently working to entrench a minority party as the permanent holders of power, and you think expanding that power is a good idea.

This isn't a slippery slope, we are standing at the edge of a pit with no visible bottom.

There is nothing about the law, as it exists now, to stop the government from imprisoning domestic terrorists. The fact that the feds treat white supremacists and nazis as low priority is not proof that we need more laws, it is proof that we need to change those in power.

This is also the strength of Darat's point. This brutal authoritarianism that you fear would use such power to harm others based on skin color, religion, or sexuality? It's in power *now*, and doing exactly what you fear, *today*. The current administration camps is running concentration camps in the US for Hispanic immigrants *now*, the constitution is being broken *as you read this*, and the main reason this is occurring is simple cowardice on the part of many so-called leaders. it didn't occur because we empowered the government to crush these guys, it happened precisely because everybody treated it as a big joke, as "just memes", until they started calling murderous self-described Nazis "very fine people", and telling US-born nonwhite people to "go back where you came from".

"Oh, you can't call them concentration camps, that's anti-semitic somehow!"

"How could you possibly call the president a racist, he's supported by Diamond *and* Silk!"

"No, it's the woman that wants to boycott Israel that believes in Dual Loyalty, not the guy who insists that Netenyahu is the the prime minister of American Jews!"

It's the refusal to take this seriously that got us the most bigoted president since at least Woodrow Wilson, not those of us who said "Um, the GOP should refuse to even nominate this guy regardless of the voters, and this guy belongs in prison."

 

[plague311]

Apparently based on a stupid wind up about being pro straight march in the US, some posters who don't live in the US think a small group of wannabe Nazi's want to invade their country and kill them because of their lifestyle.

Darat pointed out there are Nazi's in his country as well. Your lack of ability to read for comprehension, or your blatantly dismissive tone towards Nazi's, or your disingenuous ******** is both noted and laughed at, as that's all it warrants.

...wut?

I said I'm not quaking in my boots about a Jovi Val prick on a streetcorner. You respond by asking...what race/culture....targeted by Nazis...

Nevermind.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand. Then again...

 

[Thermal]

I think you are being quite naive here.

Yes, the average Nazi is a snivelling idiot. The people running the movement are not. They are very much the inheritors of the National Socialists of the 1920s and 30s, and it is a very big mistake to dismiss them.

Are you saying Richard Spencer and his slimy ilk are directly attempting to establish a fascist state and invade...what, Canada?

Can you elaborate on who the fascist leaders are and their political objectives? Are they making inroads to taking control over industry, along with their clear actions to establish a fascist government?

Cuz I only see a bunch of white power jerk offs.

 

[Thermal]

"Gas the ****, race war now!"

Know when that was said?

Hold up: you are now saying a race war was a 1930's Nazi objective? I would say that is a very different objective.

 

[plague311]

Are you saying Richard Spencer and his slimy ilk are directly attempting to establish a fascist state and invade...what, Canada?

Disingenuous nonsense. The Nazi's didn't start invading other countries immediately. They changed the atmosphere, policies, and way of life in their own country first. Seriously, do you know nothing about how it went?

Can you elaborate on who the fascist leaders are and their political objectives? Are they making inroads to taking control over industry, along with their clear actions to establish a fascist government?

Cuz I only see a bunch of white power jerk offs.

There was a team of racist ******** that moved into small town North Dakota and tried to take over the local government, in hopes of sending reps to Bismarck after controlling the votes by moving people in.

Again, though, for the millionth time. You seem to be confusing "wanting" to do something with "being able" to do something. Which has been your flaw this entire time, and now you have to make these disingenuous, hyperbolic statements just to save face. It's cringe worthy.

 

[Thermal]

In this post you give the impression that you're not very impressed with tales of immigrants and PoC being targeted by Nazis for abuse and assault. Is that a correct interpretation?

I'm not sure what you mean, in the quoted post.

But no, that is not correct. I think most of us are subjected to bigotry in one form or another. And it is out personal and social duty to call it out and rail against it. What got under my skin is that poster's endlessly condescending posts about how they have endured unfair treatment and no one else has.

 

[Thermal]

Disingenuous nonsense. The Nazi's didn't start invading other countries immediately. They changed the atmosphere, policies, and way of life in their own country first. Seriously, do you know nothing about how it went?

Yes. Yes I do. They were an organized cohesive force right out of the gate, not a bunch of random yahoos. They had a single leader and a plan for acquiring political power. That is not what I am seeing now.

There was a team of racist ******** that moved into small town North Dakota and tried to take over the local government, in hopes of sending reps to Bismarck after controlling the votes by moving people in.

And there always have been such types, and always will be. Small groups of dumbasses who swing and miss. They invade South Dakota, did they? Or did they fizzle out and disappear?

Again, though, for the millionth time. You seem to be confusing "wanting" to do something with "being able" to do something.

And for the millionth time, you are still wrong. From what I see, they have no significant political objectives. They are taking a different approach. I think that understanding their approach is important in how we deal with them. You guys crying 'Hitler is rising again' is doing us all a disservice. It makes you look like you are overreacting.

Which has been your flaw this entire time, and now you have to make these disingenuous, hyperbolic statements just to save face. It's cringe worthy.

Wrong again. You're on a roll. My flaw has been to try and discuss this skeptically with tribal shriekers.

So you are saying that you think these random alt-right groups are really working together with a fascist leader, I guess in the shadows somewhere? Do tell. Who is it? What is their strategy to bring him to prominence and power?

And before you cry 'strawman', that is exactly what you are saying.

 

[plague311]

Yes. Yes I do. They were an organized cohesive force right out of the gate, not a bunch of random yahoos. They had a single leader and a plan for acquiring political power. That is not what I am seeing now.

Hmm, they don't have a leader? They don't have someone that has encouraged them to come out of the woodwork? They don't have a plan for acquiring power? That's...an interesting take.

And there always have been such types, and always will be. Small groups of dumbasses who swing and miss. They invade South Dakota, did they? Or did they fizzle out and disappear?

You mean the small groups of dumbasses that are killing people every year? Have they fizzled out or have some people been murdered by them recently?

And for the millionth time, you are still wrong. From what I see, they have no significant political objectives. They are taking a different approach. I think that understanding their approach is important in how we deal with them. You guys crying 'Hitler is rising again' is doing us all a disservice. It makes you look like you are overreacting.

Only, no one has said Hitler is on the rise again, have they? They've said there is a substantial group of citizens on the rise that support genocide, as has been shown here a myriad of times.

Wrong again. You're on a roll. My flaw has been to try and discuss this skeptically with tribal shriekers.

Yeah, everyone is wrong but you. Sure, Jan.

So you are saying that you think these random alt-right groups are really working together with a fascist leader, I guess in the shadows somewhere? Do tell. Who is it? What is their strategy to bring him to prominence and power?

And before you cry 'strawman', that is exactly what you are saying.

Don't ******* tell me what I'm saying if you're going throw out a strawman.

This is just more disingenuous nonsense. I'm sick of it, so I'm done speaking with you on this topic. You've moved the goalposts, presented disingenuous arguments, and have in no way, shape or form even taken a fraction of the time to support your arguments.

I'll take a hard pass. Have a good one.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Don't ******* tell me what I'm saying if you're going throw out a strawman.

I'm starting to see the efficiency of the "Rule of So".

 

[I Am The Scum]

Thermal, you are doing a lot of flip-flopping between the desires of neo-nazis and their practical abilities. This has been pointed out to you before.

I'll state this as clearly as I possibly can. Across this planet there are a handful of people who literally wave swastikas in the air and deliberately describe themselves as nazis. Do you believe that even one of those individuals, in their heart of hearts, has the tiniest moral objection to the execution of the "lesser" races?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This is also the strength of Darat's point. This brutal authoritarianism that you fear would use such power to harm others based on skin color, religion, or sexuality? It's in power *now*, and doing exactly what you fear, *today*. The current administration camps is running concentration camps in the US for Hispanic immigrants *now*, the constitution is being broken *as you read this*, and the main reason this is occurring is simple cowardice on the part of many so-called leaders. it didn't occur because we empowered the government to crush these guys, it happened precisely because everybody treated it as a big joke, as "just memes", until they started calling murderous self-described Nazis "very fine people", and telling US-born nonwhite people to "go back where you came from".

"Oh, you can't call them concentration camps, that's anti-semitic somehow!"

"How could you possibly call the president a racist, he's supported by Diamond *and* Silk!"

"No, it's the woman that wants to boycott Israel that believes in Dual Loyalty, not the guy who insists that Netenyahu is the the prime minister of American Jews!"

It's the refusal to take this seriously that got us the most bigoted president since at least Woodrow Wilson, not those of us who said "Um, the GOP should refuse to even nominate this guy regardless of the voters, and this guy belongs in prison."

I remain extremely skeptical that lack of government action, say like passing hate speech laws, could have prevented the rise of right wing of the alt-right takeover of mainstream conservative politics.

I don't even agree that no one was calling them out during their rise. Plenty of people pointed out the increasing dog whistling of the mainstream conservative party throughout the years. People protested their increasing tying of themselves to christian, white identity politics.

The truth is, the public warned of the danger and people still supported it. Government inaction can be blamed for much of the criminal behavior, like the murders, but I'm not sure what you expect to be done to prevent conservatives from veering to the right. Speech laws wouldn't prevent Richard Spencer from spreading an ideology of hate, he'd just have to couch his language a bit more carefully. Everyone can read between the lines.

Far right sentiments have always been around in this country. It's an endemic ideology. For whatever reason, despite decades of being fringe, significant portions of the population are recently finding it quite intriguing.

It is frustrating to watch such poison winning in the marketplace of ideas, but wishing it away won't work. Locking up a few of the most careless and vile won't stop ~45% of the population for voting for Trump. Everyone knows what he is, and people still support him.

What power do you think the government has to make the populace less racist, or at least less willing to tolerate racism? We aren't going to legislate away radicalism.

That's the rub with this. Crushing Nazism, from a top down approach, only works when Nazism is fringe and there is broad consensus that it is the right thing to do. No such consensus exists. A large portion of our population is willing to tolerate, if not clamoring for, a hard swing to the right.

 

[Thermal]

Thermal, you are doing a lot of flip-flopping between the desires of neo-nazis and their practical abilities. This has been pointed out to you before.

I'll state this as clearly as I possibly can. Across this planet there are a handful of people who literally wave swastikas in the air and deliberately describe themselves as nazis. Do you believe that even one of those individuals, in their heart of hearts, has the tiniest moral objection to the execution of the "lesser" races?

Of course there are. I have not the slightest doubt that some of these guys are full-tilt gas-em-all genocidal true believers.

eta: your question reads as if they might have an objection, but in context I assume you mean they have no objection. Please correct me if I am misreading

But read the posts more carefully: posters are conflating 'leaders of the movement' and the Jovi Val types with those actual genocidal types. Some even conflate little wankers like the Proud Boys with Naziism.

My non-flip-flopping argument is that the vast majority are not Nazi in their objectives, as is so often claimed. I am pro-antifa, which may seem like flip-flopping to you, but here is the reason: I think you have to be realistic about your enemy. No hyperbolizing their intent or power. The little weasel on the street corner, or marching in the Incelebration Parade, does not likely want to exterminate you or millions of others. They just want power in their little worlds, even if it only means power by trashing minorities in their personal lives. That's a hateful goal, but if that is their goal, meet them in the gutter over it. Don't legitimitize them further by being hyperbolic about them. It just makes them seem 'not so bad' as the chicken littles claim. Does that make more sense?

 

[dann]

Rollins asks high court to intervene in 'Straight Pride' parade spat (Boston 25 News, Sep. 6, 2019)

 

[I Am The Scum]

Of course there are. I have not the slightest doubt that some of these guys are full-tilt gas-em-all genocidal true believers.

eta: your question reads as if they might have an objection, but in context I assume you mean they have no objection. Please correct me if I am misreading

I meant what I said. Let me be as clear as possible. Is there anyone on this planet that meets both of the following criteria?

A. Proudly wears the nazi label.
B. Deep down opposes genocide of the "lesser" races.

I say no, not a single person meets both criteria. Or, at the least, they're more rare than double lottery winners. Are we on the same page?

 

[Lithrael]

That's the rub with this. Crushing Nazism, from a top down approach, only works when Nazism is fringe and there is broad consensus that it is the right thing to do. No such consensus exists. A large portion of our population is willing to tolerate, if not clamoring for, a hard swing to the right.

I disagree with a bunch of a lot of your posts in this thread, but this one I can't argue. You are right.

 

[Thermal]

I meant what I said. Let me be as clear as possible. Is there anyone on this planet that meets both of the following criteria?

A. Proudly wears the nazi label.
B. Deep down opposes genocide of the "lesser" races.

I say no, not a single person meets both criteria. Or, at the least, they're more rare than double lottery winners. Are we on the same page?

Thanks for clarifying. We're on the same page, but damned if I can figure out what book you're reading.

I say yes, and probably half, if not the majority. People tend to be full of ****.

Ever see someone wearing a cross? Do you think that means they endorse every tenet, even the most extreme, of Christianity? I don't. Many only practice out of habit, or because it benefits them in some other way, like socially. No actual connection to their 'faith'.

Ever see someone who sports a Confederate flag tattoo? You think that means they actually want to enslave people? I know some edgy 'I'm a Rebel!' types who have one. They are not down-low wannabe slavers.

I don't think someone else's identification has to align with my understanding of that identification.

 

[Baylor]

The US Federal government is an international terrorist organization - not just under Trump. It's just rarely recognized.

Stupid derail with another hyperlink no one is going to click.

 

[quadraginta]

I'm not sure what you mean, in the quoted post.

But no, that is not correct. I think most of us are subjected to bigotry in one form or another. And it is out personal and social duty to call it out and rail against it. What got under my skin is that poster's endlessly condescending posts about how they have endured unfair treatment and no one else has.

I missed that part. Could you point it out to me?

Thanks in advance.