There Will be Blood: Boston's Straight Pride Parade.

[Thermal]

Woah, where'd those goalposts go?!

So now you don't want us to paint all Nazi's and White Supremacists with the same brush? We have to differentiate them in our conversation?

Your initial claim is still that current day Nazi's don't support genocide. When faced with insurmountable proof that they do support genocide you've now changed to "I just meant different factions of Nazis and White Supremacists."

You're still making excuses, and it's so transparent it would be funny if it weren't so sad. That person became a genocidal murderer because he was radicalized and filled with hate by Nazism and White Supremacy ideals. Those ideals led him to want to wipe out Jews. There is none, zero, nada evidence that he would have killed anyone if not introduced to those ideals, which, again, encourage genocide of people.

No dude. No. This exchange started with Darat saying that a guy wanted to kill him and millions of others. I have been pointing out that they are not all genocidal monsters. Some (the majority as I am seeing) are not.

What's with you today?

 

[plague311]

No dude. No. This exchange started with Darat saying that a guy wanted to kill him and millions of others. I have been pointing out that they are not all genocidal monsters. Some (the majority as I am seeing) are not.

What's with you today?

Absolutely nothing, same as every day.

The way I read it, he said common day nazi's wanted to kill him. Which they do, can we agree on that? If not, what part is wrong?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Reasonable. What you've said makes sense.

Let me frame this a different way. We've already, as a country, agreed that racism is not welcome here, right? We did away with slavery, Jim Crow, made race protected by the Constitution, etc. We are actively taking steps as a society against racism.

So why do we let people espouse that type of hate speech? In that sense, doesn't it seem contrary to the goal? What would we be losing if we were to not allow that speech? Now I don't believe I or Darat, he can correct me if I'm wrong, feel that any speak we don't like should be outlawed. I truly don't think that's the case.

However I, maybe not Darat, do not have any issue with this type of speech being added to a hate speech list. White Supremacists are already added to the Domestic Terrorism list, as we all know. So why can't their propaganda be outlawed the same as other terrorist speech?

Depends on how you define "we". While the arc of history has been towards the inclusion of more people under the protection of equal rights, there remains a substantial core of die hard racists, and these people are as much a part of America as anything else. They have suffered many defeats, but are far from vanquished. I doubt that they ever will be truly purged from American society.

Do EU style hate speech laws actually do anything? The EU is having quite a time with their own home grown right wing ethnonationalists, and I don't see hate speech laws doing much to stop them. Sure, people might have to hide their cards, but you can't force the ideas from their head. Here were have open nazis, there they have thinly veiled nazis. Seems like a wash to me.

Hate speech laws seem to be largely ineffective when moderates are in control, and will almost certainly be abused when radicals are in control. Seems like a bad deal to me.

The AFD is doing quite well in Germany. They know to play coy about a few certain taboo ideas to remain in compliance with German hate speech laws, but they are biding their time. Should they ever seize power, these laws will be worthless.

Hate speech laws strike me as a misguided effort. It's a paper shield.

 

[Steve]

Not openly claim, then. Demystify that for ya?

Yes. Now, perhaps you will agree that not openly claiming something in no way equates to denying that thing. In the absence of a denial the default is to assume they follow the historic tenets of the organization they claim to follow. Historically Nazis were in favor of genocide of peoples they decided were undesirable. Modern day Nazis are in favor of the same.

 

[Cavemonster]

Disagreed. I'm a fan of America's founding fathers. Not a fan of slaveholding, denying women rights, etc.

You think a fan of Jefferson's writing must endorse him in toto till proven otherwise? Harsh bro

Fan Club ≠ Fan

The thing someone is most known for ≠ everything they do and believe.


If Jefferson WAS most well known for keeping slaves, I'd expect an official Jefferson fan club to repudiate that that's not the part of his history they're fans of.

If the general feeling of the membership of the Ah Ha! fanclub was a dislike of the song "Take on me". I would find it surprising.

 

[plague311]

Depends on how you define "we". While the arc of history has been towards the inclusion of more people under the protection of equal rights, there remains a substantial core of die hard racists, and these people are as much a part of America as anything else. They have suffered many defeats, but are far from vanquished. I doubt that they ever will be truly purged from American society.

But can we agree that America, as a whole, do not condone or encourage their behavior? It is not acceptable. I'm not saying there aren't any. I'll never deny they exist, but they're abhorred by the general public, yeah?

Do EU style hate speech laws actually do anything? The EU is having quite a time with their own home grown right wing ethnonationalists, and I don't see hate speech laws doing much to stop them. Sure, people might have to hide their cards, but you can't force the ideas from their head. Here were have open nazis, there they have thinly veiled nazis. Seems like a wash to me.

I would say so. They don't have white supremacists killing people in the single or double digits on a regular basis.

Hate speech laws seem to be largely ineffective when moderates are in control, and will almost certainly be abused when radicals are in control. Seems like a bad deal to me.

I would have to disagree here. It would be extremely hard to prove either way because even if we compare the countries with those laws to the US, our lack of gun control changes the game.

The AFD is doing quite well in Germany. They know to play coy about a few certain taboo ideas to remain in compliance with German hate speech laws, but they are biding their time. Should they ever seize power, these laws will be worthless.

Hate speech laws strike me as a misguided effort. It's a paper shield.

Would you say that the AFD would be more or less influential if weren't for the country's hate speech laws? It sounds like you're saying they have to change their hate speech because of the laws, and that would imply to me that the laws are working. The party hasn't risen to power like, say, a racist ass POTUS, because of those laws.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

But can we agree that America, as a whole, do not condone or encourage their behavior? It is not acceptable. I'm not saying there aren't any. I'll never deny they exist, but they're abhorred by the general public, yeah?

I would say that it really depends. There is certainly a culture of anti-racism, and people generally know to keep their racist ideas quiet in the general public. It certainly seems to me that the general consensus is much weaker than it had been previously. More people are willing to let their bigot flags fly, to my eye.

I would say so. They don't have white supremacists killing people in the single or double digits on a regular basis.



I would have to disagree here. It would be extremely hard to prove either way because even if we compare the countries with those laws to the US, our lack of gun control changes the game.

The amount of guns and general propensity of violence in the US are a big uncontrolled variable. I would agree that our violence problem is much worse, but it's hard to make comparisons.

Would you say that the AFD would be more or less influential if weren't for the country's hate speech laws? It sounds like you're saying they have to change their hate speech because of the laws, and that would imply to me that the laws are working. The party hasn't risen to power like, say, a racist ass POTUS, because of those laws.

I don't know. Is it worse to have a racist demagogue, or a racist party. It's a bizarre situation for sure. Would Trumpism continue without Trump? Wish I could say. it is entirely possible that Trump, and the alt-right, have passed a zenith in their popularity somewhere in these last few years and we are just running out the clock of Trump's term. Parliamentary systems seem more responsive in that way, with the POTUS we just have to wait for each 4 year election to see the results.

AfD isn't hampered by hate speech laws would be my read. They can't say certain things, but they can still coalesce and organize as a force for hateful policies. Everyone knows what they are, even if they can't chant it in the streets, and they are still popular enough to worry about.

 

[Darat]

Yet they openly do not claim to endorse genocide. The burden falls back on you to demonstrate that they do. That others used to, or you really think so, does not suffice.

I am accepting what they claim i.e. that they are Nazis. You are the one saying they are Nazis but don't follow Nazism.

It's entirely up to you to provide the evidence for your quite remarkable claim, i.e. that Nazism has undergone a revolution this century and no longer follows the ideology it had for a hundred years!

 

[Darat]

To all: I think you are giving these phallically challenged losers far too much credit. Looking at them as a whole, I don't think most have the balls to argue with a traffic cop, much less kill anyone. All talk.

...snip...

And I think this is where you are showing you haven't learnt from history. Go and look into the history of the Nazis, people were describing them exactly as you are now. It took them 30 years to get into power. And then millions and millions of lives lost and destroyed by years of warfare to stop them.

 

[Thermal]

I am accepting what they claim i.e. that they are Nazis. You are the one saying they are Nazis but don't follow Nazism.

It's entirely up to you to provide the evidence for your quite remarkable claim, i.e. that Nazism has undergone a revolution this century and no longer follows the ideology it had for a hundred years!

Not a revolution. One was squelched decisively. Another has picked up some of its ideology and symbols. There is no continuity.

Do you guys get so hyper literal if someone is called a cowboy?

 

[Thermal]

And I think this is where you are showing you haven't learnt from history. Go and look into the history of the Nazis, people were describing them exactly as you are now. It took them 30 years to get into power. And then millions and millions of lives lost and destroyed by years of warfare to stop them.

And we have the benefit of that historical hindsight now. Some chump on a street corner who is all talk (think that Val guy) is not a political power rising to world domination, either. In taking bets.

Posers and the insincere edgelords are a thing. You don't accept that. I do. And I won't be scared of some impotent yepper on the streetcorner

 

[Cavemonster]

And we have the benefit of that historical hindsight now.

Yep, if history shows anything, it's that the world learns i's lessons about preventing totalitarianism and genocide.

That's why the Holocaust was the last genocide... wait it wasn't?

 

[plague311]

And we have the benefit of that historical hindsight now. Some chump on a street corner who is all talk (think that Val guy) is not a political power rising to world domination, either. In taking bets.

Posers and the insincere edgelords are a thing. You don't accept that. I do. And I won't be scared of some impotent yepper on the streetcorner

That must be really nice for you. Which one of the race\cultures\ethnicity do you belong to that were targeted by Nazi's that you claim no longer exist?

 

[luchog]

And we have the benefit of that historical hindsight now. Some chump on a street corner who is all talk (think that Val guy) is not a political power rising to world domination, either. In taking bets.

I seem to recall much the same being said about the Nazis. Just a bunch of street thugs, nothing to worry about, they couldn't possible gain a significant amount of power.

Until they did.

Posers and the insincere edgelords are a thing.

So are honest-to-goodness full-blown-neo-Nazis pretending to be poseur and insincere edgelords in order to maintain plausible deniability and create discord in their opponents' ranks.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daily-stormer-nazi-style-guide_n_5a2ece19e4b0ce3b344492f2

Excerpt:

Remember this style guide the next time an alt-righter says something so hammily outrageous that you begin to doubt its sincerity. This is by design. The Daily Stormer and other groups like it want you to be unsure if you should take them seriously. Andrew Anglin wants you to think he’s just a troll, that he’s spouting incendiary crap for no other reason than to get a rise out of you. Remember that the irony and the coy misdirection are all in service of tricking people into following him on his path toward a white supremacist state. This is what he believes.

If you're treating them as "Posers" and "insincere edgelords", then congratulations, you're playing right along and being a good little useful idiot.

And I won't be scared of some impotent yepper on the streetcorner

My friends and myself having been the target of verbal and physical assaults from "some impotent yepper on the streetcorner" in the past simply for being who were were and looking a certain way, I know better than to dismiss them as not a threat. Must be nice not to have to worry about that, bless your heart.

 

[cullennz]

Don't suppose people could explain why a bunch of nationalistic focused, racist, wannabe Nazis in the US, who have probably never been out of their own state, let alone country, want to kill Darat in the UK?

 

[Steve]

Don't suppose people could explain why a bunch of nationalistic focused, racist, wannabe Nazis in the US, who have probably never been out of their own state, let alone country, want to kill Darat in the UK?

They object to his lifestyle. Where Darat lives is not really relevant. They would like to see him dead regardless of his location. It is a basic tenet of the organization they belong to.

 

[luchog]

They object to his lifestyle. Where Darat lives is not really relevant. They would like to see him dead regardless of his location. It is a basic tenet of the organization they belong to.

That "Why would they want to kill him since they don't know him" comment is actually a really bizarre and profoundly stupid objection, TBH. How many of the millions of Jews, Roma, LGBTQs, Slavs, and developmentally disabled people that were killed in the Holocaust did Hitler or Eichmann or any of the other Nazi party leadership know personally? It's not even like the majority of them were even Germans; but were citizens of lands that were not even part of Nazi Germany until the Nazis invaded.

Worse, Hitler and the Nazi leadership applauded the persecution of Jews by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini. Hitler personally met with al-Husseini to strategize the murder of Jews and the elimination of the nascent Jewish homeland established by the British during the post-WWI partitioning. Hitler also committed to working with other sympathetic nations in Europe and around the world in dealing with their "Jewish Problem".

https://time.com/4084301/hitler-grand-mufi-1941/

That's the problem with Nazi and white supremacist ideology; it's about far more than just separatism. It cannot be fully satisfied as long as any "inferior" people still exist. It's fundamental character is the most black-and-white "for us or against us" way of thinking, which cannot tolerate even the mere existence of anyone that does not fit into its highly-restrictive view of humanity. Modern neo-Nazism has not lost that, they've just gotten better about disguising it and coding it with dogwhistles; cf. the article I lined in an earlier post.

And, of course, as noted it wasn't just Jews, LGBTQ people were also considered subhuman or irretrievably mentally ill, and either way suitable for "cleansing" to avoid contamination of the "master race".

 

[I Am The Scum]

If some random guy calls himself a Muslim, I'm going to assume that he thinks Mohammad was a pretty cool and admirable dude.

If some random guy calls himself a Nazi, I'm going to assume that he thinks Hitler was a pretty cool and admirable dude.

If anyone has a problem with either of the above inferences, then have at it.

 

[Darat]

Don't suppose people could explain why a bunch of nationalistic focused, racist, wannabe Nazis in the US, who have probably never been out of their own state, let alone country, want to kill Darat in the UK?

Nazis are not limited to the USA, we have them in this country as well.

 

[plague311]

If some random guy calls himself a Muslim, I'm going to assume that he thinks Mohammad was a pretty cool and admirable dude.

If some random guy calls himself a Nazi, I'm going to assume that he thinks Hitler was a pretty cool and admirable dude.

If anyone has a problem with either of the above inferences, then have at it.

Yeah, but that's only because you used logic to reach that conclusion.