Male & Female Brains Are The Same

[Giordano]

Hormones and genes are powerful things and as with the rest of their bodies there is no doubt that men and women brains differ on average in several anatomical and physiological ways. But as stated unthread there is an enormous amount of variation and overlap too and any individual may be more like the average of the opposite gender or more like the average of their own.

The sociological political position that men's and women's brains are "the same" emphasizes that their intelligence, potential, worth, etc. are the same. This is both accurate and a counter to the historic prejudices that "women don't have the brains for science" etc.

 

[xjx388]

To be properly "woke" these days, it seems you have to simultaneously believe there are no differences between men and women's brains, and yet that there exists a real phenomenon of women's brains in men's bodies.

Actually, to be properly woke, you don’t have to believe anything at all. You just have to accept people for who they are. Pretty simple actually.

But to address what you said, it’s actually quite easy to believe there are little to no differences between male and female brains. This means that gender and sexuality don’t have much to do with actual brain structures and that it’s other factors that determine these things.

 

[Malicex]

But to address what you said, it’s actually quite easy to believe there are little to no differences between male and female brains.

He never stated it was hard to believe. He pointed out a self-contradiction.

This means that gender and sexuality don’t have much to do with actual brain structures and that it’s other factors that determine these things.

Gender and sexuality are neurological phenomena. What other place do you generate feelings of emotion and identify, other than the brain?

 

[Thor 2]

So how does the female brain regulate childbearing?
Does the female brain have a lobe that controls their breasts?
And men one that controls the penis? (Some women claim it's the other way round.)
Neuroscience of sex differences: Male and female brain (Wikipedia)

There seems to be only minor differences between male and female brains, but they are not identical. (Of course, no two brains are.)

What is this?

A pathetic attempt to ridicule what I have said but including a note at the end that is in line with my statement. You then link a Wiki extract that you obviously have not read yourself .... perhaps you did but with a comprehension shortfall.

Males and females differ in some aspects of their brains, notably the overall difference in size with men having larger brains on average (between 8% and 13% larger),[2] but there are areas of the brain which appear not to be sexually differentiated. Additionally, there are differences in activation patterns which suggest anatomical or developmental differences, but the source of these differences is often unclear.

 

[dann]

What is this?

A pathetic attempt to ridicule what I have said but including a note at the end that is in line with my statement. You then link a Wiki extract that you obviously have not read yourself .... perhaps you did but with a comprehension shortfall.

Males and females differ in some aspects of their brains, notably the overall difference in size with men having larger brains on average (between 8% and 13% larger),[2] but there are areas of the brain which appear not to be sexually differentiated[/highlight]. Additionally, there are differences in activation patterns which suggest anatomical or developmental differences, but the source of these differences is often unclear.

The bias is painfully obvious. You don't even read the two quoted sentences properly. 1) Brain size differs quite a lot. Some women's brains are bigger than some men's brains, which doesn't seem to influence their gender or their sexual orientation. 2) "Activation patterns" means that there are areas of the brain that men tend to use more than women and vice versa. You need to perform a brain scan in order to see this because you cannot otherwise see the difference, i.e. anatomically. An interesting documentary: Being Transgender, BBC 2017. Go to 15:00-17:00 to hear dr. Baudewijntje Kreukel from the VU University Medical Centre in Amsterdam (VU Medisch Centrum) talk about similarities in the way that women and trans-women - in contrast to men and trans-men - solve spatial exercises, i.e. which areas of the brain are activated when they solve them. ETA: My link to the documentary is to a Danish public-service TV station. I don't know if people abroad can access it. This is a link to the BBC.

 

[xjx388]

He never stated it was hard to believe. He pointed out a self-contradiction.

Its not a contradiction.

Gender and sexuality are neurological phenomena. What other place do you generate feelings of emotion and identify, other than the brain?

Yes. But a male and a female brain are different from each other in the same way as two male or two female brains would be. It would not be surprising if it’s near impossible to tell the difference just by looking or doing scans.

 

[PhantomWolf]

To be properly "woke" these days, it seems you have to simultaneously believe there are no differences between men and women's brains, and yet that there exists a real phenomenon of women's brains in men's bodies.

That is what shocked me. How can one believe both?

And how is that supposed to work with them also believing in multiple genders, like androgynous and asexual? It doesn't really fit The Gender Unicorn (I am not allowed to post URLs yet).

www dot transstudent.org/genderunicornexample.jpeg

If the brains of men are women are the same, how does someone manage to feel like a female trapped in a male body and want to change their body to a female one?

Perhaps... the best answer is that the largest differences between male and female brains are their sexuality?

Disclaimer - The following is conjecture and the study I refer to does not look into the issue, nor does it suggest the inference I am about to make.

First off, thanks to Darat for posting the article with the link to the study I was referring to earlier.

One of the things that the study did find was that women tend to have more Feminine Structures and Men have more Masculine, but that the mix is all over the place, and so if you look at a brain it would be impossible to say "This is a male's brain" or "This is a female's brain" but rather you'd have to qualify it as "This is more likely to be..."

Based on this, here is my conjecture.

All mammal fetuses start life as females, and as they grow they are exposed to either greater amounts of androgens or estrogens depending on if they are XY and so testes grow and start to produce androgens, or they are XX and so generally don't get as much exposure.

I would suggest that the difference in the brains features occur based on the shifting levels of androgens or estrogens in the womb as the brain grows. More androgen at the time of growth, and that growing feature shifts more towards masculine. More estrogen and they remain feminine. This is what tends to give the random differences in structures, with males tending towards more masculine structures, and females towards more feminine structures.

Now there are individuals who exhibit more of the opposing gender's structures than their own, and other individuals who exhibit mostly transitional stages with very few true masculine or feminine structures.

My thoughts are that these are the groups of people where Trans and other non-conforming gender behaviour has the potential to occur.

I think this also tends to explain why males tend to have a higher variability than females and also why males tend to have higher rates of transgenderism than females.

Now having said all of that, I haven't seen any studies that look into it directly but there are studies that show that Transgender female and female brains do operate in similar ways, as distinct from their male counterparts, and again I think that this pushes towards the explanation I have currently. Whether it holds up as more study is done, I done know, so at the moment I'll place it as my belief based on the studies I have read, and should some future study show it true of false then it'll either go from a hypothesis to a theory, or it'll be discarded for the better proven idea.

 

[Puppycow]

Two people have mentioned hormones so far, but can I propose a simple explanation:

Maybe men's and women's brains essentially are the same, but are affected by a different mix of hormones. I think that androgens like testosterone could go a long way toward explaining the behavioral and physiological differences between men and women.

Take a woman and give her male hormones regularly, and you will see changes that make her more "man-like" in both physical appearance and behavior and such.

Under this hypothesis, the differences are mainly down to a different mix of hormones affecting the brain, not the underlying anatomical structures of the brain itself.

 

[Delvo]

How can one believe both?...

If the brains of men are women are the same, how does someone manage to feel like a female trapped in a male body and want to change their body to a female one?

That's a description of a feeling, not a description of anatomy.

Based on this, here is my conjecture.

All mammal fetuses start life as females

Your conjecture has failed at its first conjected point, by conjecting something which is already known to be false.

Take a woman and give her male hormones regularly, and you will see changes that make her more "man-like" in both physical appearance and behavior and such.

Under this hypothesis, the differences are mainly down to a different mix of hormones affecting the brain, not the underlying anatomical structures of the brain itself.

There is some truth in that, based on the experiences of transgender people comparing how they feel before & after hormone therapy. I've seen interviews with several women-becoming-men describing how much more managible and under-control their emotions seemed to get, and how much easier it got to think clearly & rationally under emotional stress, after they started taking testosterone. And I once ran across a study finding that fathers' hormone levels shifted slightly in the feminine direction after they started spending a bunch of time taking care of kids.

 

[Malicex]

Its not a contradiction.

"Simultaneously believe there are no differences between men and women's brains, and yet that there exists a real phenomenon of women's brains in men's bodies."

Again, he never said it was hard to believe that they are completely the same or different, he was pointing out the contradiction of believing both at the same time (i.e. simultaneously).

If there is no difference between male and female brains, then there can't be a female brain in a man's body.

That's a description of a feeling, not a description of anatomy.

Ok. So where does feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body come from? Does this not require their brain to be different from a man who identifies as a man?

 

[xjx388]

"Simultaneously believe there are no differences between men and women's brains, and yet that there exists a real phenomenon of women's brains in men's bodies."



Again, he never said it was hard to believe that they are completely the same or different, he was pointing out the contradiction of believing both at the same time (i.e. simultaneously).



If there is no difference between male and female brains, then there can't be a female brain in a man's body.

Ah. That’s an oversimplification I think. . . a metaphor to describe how being transgendered feels.. In other words, I don’t think it’s scientifically accurate to say, “male brain in a female body,” but it’s a perfectly adequate way to express the feeling. Given that science hasn’t figured out what causes transgenderism yet, a scientifically minded person would not “believe “ in a real phenomenon of male brains in female bodies or vice versa. There’s no real evidence for that.

Anyway. The whole “simultaneously believe” construction is a strawman as no one here has actually espoused that belief.

 

[Malicex]

a scientifically minded person would not “believe “ in a real phenomenon of male brains in female bodies or vice versa. There’s no real evidence for that.

Depends on how you define male and female brains. Personally, I am fine with someone that feels like a woman and wants to change their body into a woman, as fitting the definition of the female gender, which comes from the brain.

Anyway. The whole “simultaneously believe” construction is a strawman as no one here has actually espoused that belief.

It's not a strawman, as he was never attacking anyone here in the first place.

 

[kellyb]

Ok. So where does feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body come from?

Nobody really knows. It's probably different for different transwomen, I'd guess.

Does this not require their brain to be different from a man who identifies as a man?

No.

 

[xjx388]

Depends on how you define male and female brains. Personally, I am fine with someone that feels like a woman and wants to change their body into a woman, as fitting the definition of the female gender, which comes from the brain.

And all I’m saying is that one could not look at or scan a brain and determine if that brain produces a female gender feeling or a male gender feeling.

It's not a strawman, as he was never attacking anyone here in the first place.

Sure it is. He invented a person who has a ridiculous made up position and attacked that invented person. The very definition of a strawman. His purpose was to attack people who say they are “woke.” His strawman does not reflect the actual position of anyone on this thread or not.



Which is kind of my point; nobody holds these contradictory beliefs he’s made up.

 

[Malicex]

And all I’m saying is that one could not look at or scan a brain and determine if that brain produces a female gender feeling or a male gender feeling..

Correct. We are not equipped to see and understand all the difference in brains.

Sure it is. He invented a person who has a ridiculous made up position and attacked that invented person. The very definition of a strawman. His purpose was to attack people who say they are “woke.” His strawman does not reflect the actual position of anyone on this thread or not.

I didn't interpret it as an attack on someone in this thread, as it seemed a reply to me. I try not to be too lose with informal fallacies. And I have no idea what people he has come in contact with or what they believe.

 

[dann]

Two people have mentioned hormones so far, but can I propose a simple explanation:

Maybe men's and women's brains essentially are the same, but are affected by a different mix of hormones. I think that androgens like testosterone could go a long way toward explaining the behavioral and physiological differences between men and women.

Take a woman and give her male hormones regularly, and you will see changes that make her more "man-like" in both physical appearance and behavior and such.
Under this hypothesis, the differences are mainly down to a different mix of hormones affecting the brain, not the underlying anatomical structures of the brain itself.

I think that you should add "a different mix of hormones affecting the embryonic brain." Based on the theories I've heard, this seems to be essential. Nowadays, both male-to-female and female-to-male transsexuals describe what happens to them emotionally and mentally when they undergo sex-change hormonal therapy, but they are already at the outset the opposite gender of what we would expect them to be based on their bodies and genetics. The hormones of the amniotic fluid seem to contribute to gender identity and sexual orientation.

 

[kellyb]

I think that you should add "a different mix of hormones affecting the embryonic brain." Based on the theories I've heard, this seems to be essential. Nowadays, both male-to-female and female-to-male transsexuals describe what happens to them emotionally and mentally when they undergo sex-change hormonal therapy, but they are already at the outset the opposite gender of what we would expect them to be based on their bodies and genetics. The hormones of the amniotic fluid seem to contribute to gender identity and sexual orientation.

Maybe. This says:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4681519/

Many important psychological characteristics show sex differences, and are influenced by sex hormones at different developmental periods. We focus on the role of sex hormones in early development, particularly the differential effects of prenatal androgens on aspects of gender development. Increasing evidence confirms that prenatal androgens have facilitative effects on male-typed activity interests and engagement (including child toy preferences and adult careers), and spatial abilities, but relatively minimal effects on gender identity.

So...

 

[Oystein]

How about pondering the old "brain is a computer" analogy?

You can start out with identical computers (anatomical brain, as in neurons, blood vessels, support structures and what not), prime them with different versions of operating systems (hormones), software (what you teach them) and data (the differential experience females and males make in the real world), and in the end you might think that these are two different computers.

You could program the same computer to do nothing but control a robot, and its twin to do nothing but present great video graphics, i.e. specialized devices, and from their behaviour, people would think these are totally different computers.

But the same way, you can take a Mac and a Lenovo PC, with their different operating system, and program them to do the same activity, and people might think from their behaviour that they are the same, or very similar.


A brain is not as much a blank slate, software-wise, as a digital computer, and there are many ways in which the analogy fails

Just something to ponder.

Many people believe that men and women have different hair and need different hair care products. No.

 

[Malicex]

How about pondering the old "brain is a computer" analogy?

You can start out with identical computers (anatomical brain, as in neurons, blood vessels, support structures and what not), prime them with different versions of operating systems (hormones), software (what you teach them) and data (the differential experience females and males make in the real world), and in the end you might think that these are two different computers.

You could program the same computer to do nothing but control a robot, and its twin to do nothing but present great video graphics, i.e. specialized devices, and from their behaviour, people would think these are totally different computers.

But the same way, you can take a Mac and a Lenovo PC, with their different operating system, and program them to do the same activity, and people might think from their behaviour that they are the same, or very similar.

Hmm... so physically the computers would be in two different physical states, but the basic structure is the same. If you think about it, just a drop of acid can completely change how you feel, think, behave, and perceive, but the underlining structural components of your brain remain the same. It's an interesting thing to think about.

Going back to differences in the brain, I recently read an article on how it changes through time.

Unexpected sex differences in brain development in Psychology Today

"What's particularly interesting about this new report is that the NIH group found that sex differences diminish as a function of age, from age 9 through age 22.

To put it another way: after the onset of puberty - when girls start making lots of estradiol and other ‘female' hormones, while boys start making lots of testosterone and other ‘male' hormones - sex differences in the brain actually decrease. The brains of 9-year-old girls and boys are remarkably different - but they grow more and more alike throughout adolescence and into young adulthood."

 

[blutoski]

If you have a brain sitting in front of you, can you tell whether it came from a man or a woman? (I'm asking because I don't know, not to make a point, whatever it might be.)

Yes, I'd ask the brain: "Are you a man or a woman" and go from there.

Oh, you mean an extracted brain from a dead person?

We did this in physical anthropology. Sexing remains, basically. Skeletons are easier to sex because the bones form processes at the insertion points and you can see robustness versus gracile patterns.

Brains are a little different. It's not a bimodal situation, brains aren't definitely male vs definitely female. They're just further in one direction than the other, so sexing with a complete brain and no cranial bones (which would show much more distinct male/female musculature esp at the nuchal line, and you wouldn't even have to crack it open) is a "percentage confidence" thing.

Meaning, you'd do the metrics and say "this one's female" and be wrong 25% of the time, but it's still better than guessing, so there's something to it. But this is just superficial - you can also tell if the brain belongs to a tall vs short person, fat vs skinny person, young vs old person. None of this tells you about the organ's emergent personality.

Which is probably the point of the teacher's high level lesson. The physiological differences don't guarantee behavioral differences. We also don't know, for example, whether the physiological differences are genetic specific for the brain itself or acquired through life experiences (some of which may be genetic but manifest elsewhere). It's the usual chicken and the egg problem.