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Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up
- Thread starter Dave Rogers
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Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
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Brexit: Boris Johnson says 'anti-democratic' backstop must be scrapped
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49402840
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49402840
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Yeah. I have crossed Austria-Germany, France-Germany, Netherlands-France, Spain-France and probably more borders I have forgotten in both directions. No checks of any sort.
Just last week I crossed ROI-NI in both directions 4 times in a single day. Tumbleweeds. Nothing. Nada. Rien du tout. People have some really odd ideas about how internal EU borders are policed.
There have been "temporary" border checks on Austria-German border, coming from Austria, ever since the refugee crisis of 2015.
The EU has to OK each new 6-month extension though.
McHrozni
Fine by me, as long as he also proposes an acceptable solution that will make the backstop unnecessary.
McHrozni
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Fair enough. I haven't been in that neck of the woods in some time.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
He said what he doesn't want. What does he want from this deal?
Something to blame on the EU? So the chaos will all be their fault? Reminds me of a certain regular poster in this thread.
The same as most, if not all, Brexiteers. All of the benefits of EU membership with none of the responsibilities.
Of course there are differing views about what constitutes a benefit or responsibility among Brexiteers so even if the EU agreed to the UK's demands, there still wouldn't be a consensus among Brexiteers about what they were
catsmate
No longer the 1
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Power. Privilege. Wealth. Scapegoats.
There are checks on the Danish-German border and Austrian-Slovenian border too, all in the northerly direction. You can travel from north to south without incident, but will be checked south to north. It's to control the flow of refugees, alledgedly. I suspect the real reason is to placate the xenophobes from Denmark down.
Anyway, they're supposed to be "temporary", even though they already lasted for about twice as long as legally permitted. The said law had to change in the meantime as a result of these checks.
If that's the price for not inviting Brexit melodrama into countries from Denmark down, it's a price I'm willing to pay for some time yet.
McHrozni
Last edited:
A hard Brexit and an open Irish border, and then England rides out the resultant trade chaos by winging it like Jack Sparrow.
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
They do. They just don't care.
Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, and it's only the Unionists who object the backstop, yet (potentially) having Northern Ireland remain in the EU's customs union and single market even for limited period of time is "anti-democratic".
******* ridiculous. Not only was the DUP the only major party that objected to the GFA, it's also hostile towards the EU, so its not exactly surprising that they would support leaving without any deal even if there was a border.
catsmate
No longer the 1
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Hence the interesting EU election result in Norn Iron.
The UK has decided to play hardball....
and furthermore, they're not going to turn up to any more play dates....
The EU continues to bully the UK by pointing out that we have no clear plan.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49411786
and furthermore, they're not going to turn up to any more play dates....
The EU continues to bully the UK by pointing out that we have no clear plan.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49411786
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
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- 54,796
Yep Boris is pulling a Blazing Saddles holding a gun to the head of the country and saying "do what we want or the limies get it!"
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
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You are wrong. The backstop is only replicating things that are already present when you have EU membership. Since it’s already included in EU membership, no special agreement is required. It’s only when you try to reproduce these things for a non-EU member that you need an agreement like the backstop.
"One thing that slightly, I think, complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. And as long as they think there’s a possibility that parliament will block Brexit they are unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need. So it is going to take a bit of patience."
Johnson blames remainer MPs, to add to his blaming the EU.
Remind you of anyone?
Johnson blames remainer MPs, to add to his blaming the EU.
Remind you of anyone?
Well now that **** Johnson is making a case for the backstop being undemocratic I am clearly dementing if I agree with him on anything!
To be clear I am not in favour of Brexit, I am in favour of open borders. but my opposition to the backstop is pragmatic for the reasons below.
A majority of UK MPs have voted against the May deal with backstop three times and the speaker has said there will be no further vote allowed unless there is a substantive change.
The EU have said that they are not going to renegotiate the May deal. Therefore there is a current impasse. Something has to change.
It appears the objections of many of those MPs who voted against the May deal and Backstop were to the Backstop and would vote in favour of the May deal without Backstop.
It appears generally agreed the May deal results with things continuing as they are so under the May deal the NI / Ireland border remains open. This being the case the backstop is redundant to the May deal. The only way the May deal can get through the UK parliament is to drop the Backstop, this will ensure an open border for the duration of the transition arrangement (which could potentially be fairly long).
The importance of the backstop is to ensure the NI/Ireland border remains open with the final / permanent deal, therefore the backstop should be part of the negotiations for the final / permanent deal between the UK and the EU. Insisting on the backstop now may result in a hard border 'now'. Deferring the backstop to future negotiations may or may not stop a hard border in future, but a possible problem in the future is better than the same problem 'now'.
Reasons for insisting on the backstop now appear to be because people believe it might result in:
a) parliament deferring the exit date from 31/10/19 but this does not solve the impasse that the May / Backstop deal cannot be voted on again.
b) parliament will cause article 50 to be repealed. The UK remains in the EU, whilst this may be better than Brexit, I believe it would be politically bad as the Brexit issue would remain live and parliament would be seen to have overridden the referendum. I do not believe there would be a parliamentary majority to repeal article 50.
c) In case of a) or b) above the delay will result in a further referendum (but there is no guarantee that people will get the answer they hope for so it might just leave the issue as is but a few months down the line with a small pro Brexit majority). Even if the referendum resulted in a remain result unless it was very clear (e.g. >60% remain) it would not solve the Brexit issue. A 51% pro-remain vote would just result in continued pressure for a best of three vote.
I believe that the best way to solve the Brexit issue at this point is for the UK to leave with the best deal possible (which pragmatically I would accept as the May deal), for people to realise that the EU is the better option, and unlike last time we joined the EU for there to be a referendum on joining the EU and hopefully a clear majority in favour. (I accept some will say why would the EU take the UK back, but I would say because it would be of benefit to the EU and because philosophically the raisom d'être of the EU is the union of European nations.)
To be clear I am not in favour of Brexit, I am in favour of open borders. but my opposition to the backstop is pragmatic for the reasons below.
A majority of UK MPs have voted against the May deal with backstop three times and the speaker has said there will be no further vote allowed unless there is a substantive change.
The EU have said that they are not going to renegotiate the May deal. Therefore there is a current impasse. Something has to change.
It appears the objections of many of those MPs who voted against the May deal and Backstop were to the Backstop and would vote in favour of the May deal without Backstop.
It appears generally agreed the May deal results with things continuing as they are so under the May deal the NI / Ireland border remains open. This being the case the backstop is redundant to the May deal. The only way the May deal can get through the UK parliament is to drop the Backstop, this will ensure an open border for the duration of the transition arrangement (which could potentially be fairly long).
The importance of the backstop is to ensure the NI/Ireland border remains open with the final / permanent deal, therefore the backstop should be part of the negotiations for the final / permanent deal between the UK and the EU. Insisting on the backstop now may result in a hard border 'now'. Deferring the backstop to future negotiations may or may not stop a hard border in future, but a possible problem in the future is better than the same problem 'now'.
Reasons for insisting on the backstop now appear to be because people believe it might result in:
a) parliament deferring the exit date from 31/10/19 but this does not solve the impasse that the May / Backstop deal cannot be voted on again.
b) parliament will cause article 50 to be repealed. The UK remains in the EU, whilst this may be better than Brexit, I believe it would be politically bad as the Brexit issue would remain live and parliament would be seen to have overridden the referendum. I do not believe there would be a parliamentary majority to repeal article 50.
c) In case of a) or b) above the delay will result in a further referendum (but there is no guarantee that people will get the answer they hope for so it might just leave the issue as is but a few months down the line with a small pro Brexit majority). Even if the referendum resulted in a remain result unless it was very clear (e.g. >60% remain) it would not solve the Brexit issue. A 51% pro-remain vote would just result in continued pressure for a best of three vote.
I believe that the best way to solve the Brexit issue at this point is for the UK to leave with the best deal possible (which pragmatically I would accept as the May deal), for people to realise that the EU is the better option, and unlike last time we joined the EU for there to be a referendum on joining the EU and hopefully a clear majority in favour. (I accept some will say why would the EU take the UK back, but I would say because it would be of benefit to the EU and because philosophically the raisom d'être of the EU is the union of European nations.)
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