Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

[Delphic Oracle]

It's almost like the word collaborator was never used by anyone, in any other context than when referring to Nazis.

Remoaners sure are getting desperate now - a good example being Green MP Caroline Lucas's recent sexist and non-inclusive article - if you really want to criticize an MP for saying or writing offensive stuff about Brexit, then you should begin with her.

Oh please. Positioning an entity (be it a person or a collective body) as the enemy and then suggesting a political opponent is "collaborating" with it is not something that requires mystical omen reading to deconstruct.

It is an insidious ploy because it doesn't just have the result of smearing the opponent, it plants seeds in people's minds about being able to trust each other. It's one whiff away from saying "there are traitors among us!"

It follows hand-in-hand with numerous direct accusations about Remain bureaucrats "sabotaging" the Brexit process as the preemptive groundwork for why it's all about to go bonkers.

ETA: also, nice touch making your brief rebuttal and then pulling a "oh yeah, whatabout..."

 

[ceptimus]

Dunno, a quick Google search indicates that that's the current usage.

It doesn't count as offensive when its being spouted by a Remainer.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-party-plaid-cymru-heidi-allen-a8998076.html

[Heidi Allen] said Unite for Remain would prioritise “modern, country-first, cross-party collaboration across the nation”

 

[Vixen]

It’s essentially the same thing as receivership in in US bankruptcy proceedings.

We used to have 'in Receivership' in the UK which was slightly different from 'in Administration'. I no longer have my notes and can't remember what the difference was. Probably to do with who was appointed.

ETA. Ah, here we go:

Receivership differs from Administration, as the latter works to protect companies from their creditors. Whereas, Receivership is initiated by those creditors or banks that believe the business cannot pay its debts. Unlike in administration, directors cannot place their own company into receivership.

https://www.businessrescueexpert.co.uk/difference-between-administration-and-receivership/

 

[The Don]

It doesn't count as offensive when its being spouted by a Remainer.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-party-plaid-cymru-heidi-allen-a8998076.html

Use of the gerund collaboration doesn't carry the same sort of baggage as calling someone, especially an opponent, a Collaborator.

The whole Leaver schtick harks back to the days of Empire and Britain's greatest hour when Britain (and its Empire and its remaining allies, but those are conveniently forgotten) stood alone against Hitler. In that context the word Collaborator was a deliberate and careful choice IMO.

 

[The Don]

Jeremy Corbyn has revealed how he will defeat a no-deal Brexit (and instead have a Corbyn Brexit that no-one other than about 25% of the Labour Party wants )

The Plan in full is:

• Win motion of no-confidence
• Be appointed Prime Minister in a coalition of Labour, SNP, LibDems and Tory rebels
• Delay Brexit until the Corbyn Brexit deal (which if you recall is equally as fantastic as the wildest ERG fever-dream)
• Hold and win a referendum to approve his Brexit

The response from the leader of one of the parties he is counting on for support:

Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson dismissed the plans as "nonsense".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49352250

The Conservatives are truly lucky to have such an ineffective and ineffectual leader of the opposition.

 

[The Don]

A clear indication of what a post-Brexit deal with the US will entail:

The UK must accept US food standards as part of any future trade deal with Washington, the head of America's farming lobby has said.

Zippy Duvall, head of the American Farm Bureau, said US farmers were keen to trade with their British "friends".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49353220

It seems that "taking back control" means no longer being a key influencer in setting the standards for a large multinational body of which we are a member and instead accept whatever standards the US wants to impose (which at the same time will significantly complicate doing business with the EU)

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Jeremy Corbyn has revealed how he will defeat a no-deal Brexit (and instead have a Corbyn Brexit that no-one other than about 25% of the Labour Party wants )

The Plan in full is:

• Win motion of no-confidence
• Be appointed Prime Minister in a coalition of Labour, SNP, LibDems and Tory rebels
• Delay Brexit until the Corbyn Brexit deal (which if you recall is equally as fantastic as the wildest ERG fever-dream)
• Hold and win a referendum to approve his Brexit

The response from the leader of one of the parties he is counting on for support:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49352250

The Conservatives are truly lucky to have such an ineffective and ineffectual leader of the opposition.

Isn't that basically Jo Swinson's plan too though? Except she won't work with the SNP to deliver it making it even harder.

 

[Tolls]

Remoaners sure are getting desperate now - a good example being Green MP Caroline Lucas's recent sexist and non-inclusive article - if you really want to criticize an MP for saying or writing offensive stuff about Brexit, then you should begin with her.

She has been poo-pooed for her ridiculous idea, from all sides.
So hardly the equivalent.

Where are the Moggs and IDS's pointing out that "collaborator" is a divisive term to use?

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

You can't blame him for claiming what he's entitled to, and it's very much to his credit that he's willing to give up this source of income in order that the country can leave the EU.

I know! He really is a modern day folk hero isn't he: unelected in the noble English fashion rather than the untrustworthy EU fashion, and not in any way a hypocritical, disingenuous, machiavellian little craphound doing his damndest to push through a No Deal Brexit that few desire, via a backdoor insurrection of government, despite being currently in contempt of Parliament, and despite there being a consistent majority for Remain for the last two years.

Meanwhile, actual working farmers are making their feelings known today:

Farmers calling for second EU referendum to herd sheep down Whitehall in protest on Thursday

 

[lomiller]

How is saying, "We will leave on the agreed written-in-law deadline, with or without your help." whining, or having false expectations?

You want things the EU doesn’t give to any non-EU country. Furthermore it’s not just the EU that doesn’t offer these things, no other country does either. What you are asking for is not reasonable and no one is going to give in to unreasonable demands just because you’ve threaten to harm yourself.

My advice is to stop expecting the EU to make unreasonable compromises, stop complaining the EU won’t make unreasonable compromises and stop trying to blame the people who told you your expectations were unreasonable and would never happen.

 

[Darat]

You can't blame him for claiming what he's entitled to, and it's very much to his credit that he's willing to give up this source of income in order that the country can leave the EU.

When did we vote on his entitlement? Plus of course you can blame someone for acting in a way that is against their stated principles. No one forced him to take up his "entitlement".

 

[Information Analyst]

He's absolutely right. You would think Phillip Hammond and others like him were employees of the EU, not MPs who are elected by and paid by UK taxpayers.

Who were split 52/48 on Leaving.

Tell you what, you regard your taxes as paying for Johnson, Gove, Patel, etc., and I'll regard mine as paying for Hammond, Lucas, Foxcroft, etc. Sorted.

 

[Information Analyst]

Remoaners sure are getting desperate now - a good example being Green MP Caroline Lucas's recent sexist and non-inclusive article - if you really want to criticize an MP for saying or writing offensive stuff about Brexit, then you should begin with her.

Like you give a **** about that, except as a stick to beat her with.

 

[Planigale]

Again for reference: I’m Canadian so I have no dog in the fight.

With that in mind as a mostly independent third party, it’s clear that the EU is the reasonable ones here. What they are demanding fits all international norms for how nations interact. It’s BJ and Brexiters in general with the false sense of entitlement and whining because no one will conform to their completely unreasonable expectations

This is I think the problem, in negotiations one should not demand, the EU may be asking for or offering, but not demanding. I am also not sure about 'international norms', as I recall the international norm is "War is the continuation of politics by other means". The EU declared policy is that the UK should not profit by leaving the EU; a reasonable policy should be the EU should not lose by Brexit; an unreasonable policy is to prevent the UK from benefitting from leaving the EU*. So I do not think the EU is following international norms if there are such things.

*For avoidance of doubt I think the UK will inevitably suffer from leaving the EU and should remain in the EU, this does not exempt me from criticising the EU negotiation policy. From a selfish view point as a UK resident I want the UK to get the best deal it can if we exit the EU; it may be second best to being in the EU but I want it to be the best second best the UK can get. The UK government should be demanding the most, that is how negotiations go, the EU should allow the UK to have the most that does not negatively impact on the EU and vice versa. To deliberately disadvantage the UK to no benefit to the EU is at best spiteful and at worst may have long term consequences that are unpredictable. (The BBC had a recent series entitled the history of the treaty of Versaille in five wars.)

 

[ponderingturtle]

This is I think the problem, in negotiations one should not demand, the EU may be asking for or offering, but not demanding.

Then maybe the british negotiating team shouldn't have been the ones demanding all the benefits of EU membership but none of the responsibilities?

*For avoidance of doubt I think the UK will inevitably suffer from leaving the EU and should remain in the EU, this does not exempt me from criticising the EU negotiation policy. From a selfish view point as a UK resident I want the UK to get the best deal it can if we exit the EU; it may be second best to being in the EU but I want it to be the best second best the UK can get. The UK government should be demanding the most, that is how negotiations go, the EU should allow the UK to have the most that does not negatively impact on the EU and vice versa. To deliberately disadvantage the UK to no benefit to the EU is at best spiteful and at worst may have long term consequences that are unpredictable. (The BBC had a recent series entitled the history of the treaty of Versaille in five wars.)

But you don't negotiate by demanding!!!! Why are you trying to scuttle negotiations by having the UK issue demands?

 

[Planigale]

Then maybe the british negotiating team shouldn't have been the ones demanding all the benefits of EU membership but none of the responsibilities?



But you don't negotiate by demanding!!!! Why are you trying to scuttle negotiations by having the UK issue demands?

And that is why I am not a politician!

Yes double standard mis-speak there. The UK should be asking firmly for the best deal they can get but not demanding!

 

[ponderingturtle]

And that is why I am not a politician!

Yes double standard mis-speak there. The UK should be asking firmly for the best deal they can get but not demanding!

The thing is that the EU certainly seems to have been the ones say doing the work and showing up, as well as looking for a solution within established norms. It is the UK team that wasn't doing any of that, and they were not even holding brussels hostage with nuclear weapons to get what they wanted, a plan that has better chances than the one they used.

 

[Planigale]

The thing is that the EU certainly seems to have been the ones say doing the work and showing up, as well as looking for a solution within established norms. It is the UK team that wasn't doing any of that, and they were not even holding brussels hostage with nuclear weapons to get what they wanted, a plan that has better chances than the one they used.

You may be right. I have no idea about the details of the negotiations. The EU can claim limited flexibility since everything that has not been pre-agreed would have to be approved by all the other EU members etc. The UK can claim limited ability to agree since the UK parliament has to agree not the government.

 

[Vixen]

I know! He really is a modern day folk hero isn't he: unelected in the noble English fashion rather than the untrustworthy EU fashion, and not in any way a hypocritical, disingenuous, machiavellian little craphound doing his damndest to push through a No Deal Brexit that few desire, via a backdoor insurrection of government, despite being currently in contempt of Parliament, and despite there being a consistent majority for Remain for the last two years.

Meanwhile, actual working farmers are making their feelings known today:

Farmers calling for second EU referendum to herd sheep down Whitehall in protest on Thursday

This made me chuckle:

Farmers have warned the government that 40% tariffs on meat exported to the EU could lead to the mass slaughter of sheep.

Helen Roberts from the National Sheep Association in Wales said in July it would be “absolutely catastrophic” to leave with no deal and could lead to civil unrest among sheep farmers.

Visions of sheep farmers gathering up pitch forks, pikes and rakes marching upon London Wat Tyler-style is something I would pay to see.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You may be right. I have no idea about the details of the negotiations. The EU can claim limited flexibility since everything that has not been pre-agreed would have to be approved by all the other EU members etc. The UK can claim limited ability to agree since the UK parliament has to agree not the government.

Yet you make characterizations about the motives behind the details you don't know anything about.

Fascinating.