Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

[catsmate]

I''ll give you one for a starter. Philip Hammond, the most important job in cabinet apart from the PM herself. She appointed him immediately she became PM. He's always been staunchly remain and obstructed no-deal preparations at every turn. Now that he can no longer force his will on government, he has petulantly resigned in the most grandstanding manner imaginable, and vowed to continue to obstruct the will of the people from the back benches - up to and including bringing down his own government.

Because he was a moderately competent chancellor and could comprehend the consequences of Brexit perhaps?

 

[catsmate]

The UK and Eire have separate arrangements regarding control of the Irish border and migration between the two countries that is independent of the EU, primarily the CTA. The EU has hardly any say as the UK and Eire have traditionally had an open border in terms of migration. It only became a controlled border when the Troubles were on the go.

The people did not know that and voted to take control of something we already had control over.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The EU negotiated trade deals with Canada, and other countries, without requiring them to join the EU customs union.

Not only do those countries, as has already been pointed out, not have an open border with the EU, anything they export to the EU has to abide by the EU standards.
So if the UK wishes to export to the EU it will still have to abide by those standards. Of course it won't be able to influence them anymore, but that's what the people voted for.

 

[dudalb]

I don't think it's a claim so much as it as a paranoid delusion shared by many brexiteers, the EU is an evil empire out to destroy Britain and if only we can escape we will reclaim our rightful place as a world power.

SO exactly how do they expect the UK to get it's empire back?
When the UK lost the empire, they pretty lost their world power status.

 

[ceptimus]

The UK can make things it wants to export to the EU meet EU standards in just the same way that it has to make things for export to the USA meet USA standards.

There's no need for the UK to make everything that isn't for export to the EU meet EU standards - those goods will meet British Standards or the standards of the country they're for export to.

Absolutely no need to remain part of the EU customs union to do any of that. Do you think China is in the EU customs union? EU citizens buy tons of stuff from China and would buy even more if they were allowed to.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Why would a manufacturer make different versions of the same products to different standards?

As has been pointed out we gave an open border with the EU. China doesn't.

What stops us buying as much stuff from China as we want?

 

[Vixen]

SO exactly how do they expect the UK to get it's empire back?
When the UK lost the empire, they pretty lost their world power status.

It just needs to colonise, Africa, Asia, Australia and the North Americas.

Start producing Spitfires again.

Rule Britannia! Britannia rule the waves!

 

[The Don]

The EU negotiated trade deals with Canada, and other countries, without requiring them to join the EU customs union.

Canada trade deal is far worse than Remain. It doesn't include services (80% of the economy) and especially does not cover financial passporting - remember we have a large services trade surplus with the EU.

There is also no facility for seamless trade with Canada, goods still require a customs check.

 

[Lothian]

Because that would be absolutely useless. All the disadvantages of remaining without any benefit. Better to remain completely than do that.

If you are looking at what is best then Remaining is better for us than all versions of leaving.
However I am pleased that you accept that the leave vote is not absolute, and the actual deal needs to be considered.
While you are comparing the way we leave against your wishes I suggest that a better comparison is to compare against what the leave campaign promised. If we don't get border posts checking everyone coming in and ourt, frictionless trade with the EU. The ability to make better trade deals with the row, and of course £350m a week for the NHS then that is not what was promised, and a confirmationary referendum should be held.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Nigel Farage has said he is open to an electoral pact with the Conservative Party - if Boris Johnson is genuine about taking the UK out of the EU on 31 October.

Mr Farage said Mr Johnson would need to call an election if he wanted a no-deal Brexit, in order to "change the arithmetic" in the Commons.

He said there was then a "possibility" of a pact between the parties.

But he added: "I don't believe a single word the Conservative Party tell us."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49092692

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The UK can make things it wants to export to the EU meet EU standards in just the same way that it has to make things for export to the USA meet USA standards.

There's no need for the UK to make everything that isn't for export to the EU meet EU standards - those goods will meet British Standards or the standards of the country they're for export to.

Absolutely no need to remain part of the EU customs union to do any of that. Do you think China is in the EU customs union? EU citizens buy tons of stuff from China and would buy even more if they were allowed to.

Of course they can. But the UK is generally too small a market to have a unique product made for it so in the end it will comply with someone else's standards. So you are either going to get EU standards applied or a lower standard that they can get away with from the US or China or whatever.

I would be willing to bet given the complete hassle of managing standards about 99 or more percent of any future UK standards will simply be an adoption of an existing international standard (which in the majority of cases the UK will not be able to contribute to its development) and probably in about 95% of cases it will just be the EU standard anyway.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So...anyway.. when should we expect Boris to bring his first piece of Brexit legislation to the house for a vote? Presumably its someway off as he would need to first negotiate something different to put to the house. When that fails will he bother with another vote or just drift into a no-deal?

 

[The Don]

So...anyway.. when should we expect Boris to bring his first piece of Brexit legislation to the house for a vote? Presumably its someway off as he would need to first negotiate something different to put to the house. When that fails will he bother with another vote or just drift into a no-deal?

It is very unlikely that there will be any change to the Withdrawal Agreement (not least because the EU have clearly stated that they won't make any changes). There may be some changes to the Political Declaration and Boris may try to persuade MPs that this is some great new deal, much better than Theresa May's. If he enjoys the support of the ERG IMO there is a good chance that "his" deal will get approved.

Otherwise, he'll be perfectly happy for the UK to crash out with a no-deal.

 

[Nessie]

So as long as the UK stays in the customs union with the Eu they can have the open border. Otherwise it has to close and that is exactly what those people voted for.

I mean I guess the Republic of Ireland could also leave the EU to keep the open border with the UK but really it isn't that complicated. You either have free trade with the EU or a closed border with Ireland. You simply can't declare you will have both and expect it to work better than simply declaring you can have your cake still after you eat it. I know the law says that even if you eat it you must still have it, but here is the thing, reality kind of gets in the way.

The Irish border and the EU border are simply not two separate issues. That was the whole point of the Backstop keeping Norther Ireland in the customs union so there wouldn't be a hard border. But that isn't acceptable so clearly a hard border is what the people want.

I was referring to migration, not trade.

If you take the leave vote to mean, leave everything, that does not affect the outwith the EU arrangement regarding migration.

Leaving the EU, as you say, deeply changes the trade relationship.

 

[Nessie]

The UK can make things it wants to export to the EU meet EU standards in just the same way that it has to make things for export to the USA meet USA standards.

There's no need for the UK to make everything that isn't for export to the EU meet EU standards - those goods will meet British Standards or the standards of the country they're for export to.

Absolutely no need to remain part of the EU customs union to do any of that. Do you think China is in the EU customs union? EU citizens buy tons of stuff from China and would buy even more if they were allowed to.

Indeed, to what standard we make our goods for export is not affected in the slightest by leaving the EU.

The only change is that after leaving, the UK has no say what so ever in the EU standards, whereas before, we had a say.

 

[Nessie]

Of course they can. But the UK is generally too small a market to have a unique product made for it so in the end it will comply with someone else's standards. So you are either going to get EU standards applied or a lower standard that they can get away with from the US or China or whatever.

I would be willing to bet given the complete hassle of managing standards about 99 or more percent of any future UK standards will simply be an adoption of an existing international standard (which in the majority of cases the UK will not be able to contribute to its development) and probably in about 95% of cases it will just be the EU standard anyway.

Standards vary from country to country. The EU and western world countries tend to have strict and detailed standards. Other countries less so.

Manufacturing exporters have always had to comply with what ever the standard is, there is no real chnage there.

 

[ceptimus]

I would be willing to bet given the complete hassle of managing standards about 99 or more percent of any future UK standards will simply be an adoption of an existing international standard (which in the majority of cases the UK will not be able to contribute to its development) and probably in about 95% of cases it will just be the EU standard anyway.

Many of the current EU standards originated as British Standards.

It's a shame we can't just have worldwide standards. Engineers would much prefer that, and there is a gradual move towards it - but the move is glacially slow. We blame politicians for that.

 

[The Don]

Many of the current EU standards originated as British Standards.

It's a shame we can't just have worldwide standards. Engineers would much prefer that, and there is a gradual move towards it - but the move is glacially slow. We blame politicians for that.

Wouldn't that see the UK having to adhere to standards agreed by foreigners ?

I mean if it's unacceptable to Brexiteers for the UK to follow standards where we are one of the two or three most influential countries among 28 setting them, how is it better to be maybe in the top 10 out of 200+ countries ?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Many of the current EU standards originated as British Standards.

Are you sure?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I was referring to migration, not trade.

If you take the leave vote to mean, leave everything, that does not affect the outwith the EU arrangement regarding migration.

Leaving the EU, as you say, deeply changes the trade relationship.

Of course treating different EU countries differently with regard to migration is also an issue.