Hypnotism and Astral Projection

[AsleepAtTheKeyboard]

I have a friend who has been getting involved with the projection community...I'd say he's primarily convinced by the amount of anecdotal evidence, though he claims to have had brief out-of-body encounters himself.
I've tried to ask him to be critical, and he agrees it's a good thing, but I'm pretty sure he's still only reading the material that assumes this all is true. He has stopped taking things with a grain of salt (or never has).
I admit I come from the bias that OBEs aren't actually out of body, but the slight investigation I did on the forum he frequents was not impressive (remote-viewing success claims consisted of getting the correct color or suit of two playing cards after *several* attempts).
Now this weekend he's going to visit a hypnotist. From what I have heard and read, there is some real effect going on in hypnotism - some of the time.

-How do OBE-ers think of hypnotism?
-How can I influence my friend to think more critically?
-Is there any specific thing I can do at the hypnotism (I think I will be present) to help him think critically about the situation?

I thank you all ahead of time for allowing me to tap into your wealth of knowledge and experience.

 

[Soapy Sam]

You could smack him over the head with a dumbass stick.
(Available from Soapy Solutions Inc. $109.99 each, two for $300.00)

At the hypnotism. Take detailed notes. Ask if you can film / photograph quietly and do so if you can. I've seen some entertaining and quite impressive hypnotism demonstrations. Your mate (if hypnotised) should not drive afterwards. I once saw a man fall asleep at a red light about 45 minutes after being hypnotised using a spinning red lamp. He was not kidding. I woke him by pouring a bottle of soda water in his lap, then told him he had wet himself. He believed me.
I don't know what hypnosis does. It's certainly all in the mind, but so is bravery, fanaticism and suicide.

As for your pal's odd beliefs, well - they are his and you are not his keeper.
Let him do his best to explain what he thinks. Ask polite, rational questions. Don't drive him into a corner. Friends are allowed to be stupid.

 

[HypnoPsi]

Your mate (if hypnotised) should not drive afterwards.

Don't be ridiculous. Coming out of hypnosis is like nothing more than coming out of a nap - if that. You just get your head together normally like you would after a nap rather than driving while you're drowsy.

I once saw a man fall asleep at a red light about 45 minutes after being hypnotised using a spinning red lamp. He was not kidding. I woke him by pouring a bottle of soda water in his lap, then told him he had wet himself. He believed me.

Your mate fell asleep and you got lucky. So lucky that the whole thing smells a bit fishy to me.
_
HypnoPsi

 

[vbloke]

I've just had an out-of-wallet experience
(someone has cloned my credit card and gone shopping)
it's a very weird experience and has certainly done something for my blood pressure

 

[1984]

-How do OBE-ers think of hypnotism?
-How can I influence my friend to think more critically?
-Is there any specific thing I can do at the hypnotism (I think I will be present) to help him think critically about the situation?

Welcome AsleepAtTheKeyboard!

Penn and Teller's DVD series titled Bullsh*t! may be of interest to you. The first season has an aeronautics guy induce an OBE on himself by taking a ride in one of those flight simulators that puts him through G forces. The footage has montages of him passing out several times, and is not for the faint hearted. The flesh on his face presses. His head wobbles uncontrollably. Eyes look up into his head. Then he passes out and experiences an OBE. A scientific explanation is given. (Note: Said DVD has censored and uncensored versions).

Hypnotism can be dangerous in some cases. The mentioned DVD shows a therapist getting someone "recover" their suppressed memory of being abducted by aliens. She has a therapy group, and charges big bucks to "assist" people who have been abducted. One lady *sigh* beleives she has an alien family and has drawn a picture of them. These people have been and will be in "therapy" for years. Example therapist question to hypnotised person: "And was there a light shining above you car?" Slight pause followed by an unconvincing, "Yes, yes there was." - by the hypnotised person. Not to mention hypnotists who want to get a child to confess someone sexually molested them, when in fact that may never have happened. Check this out, available in the Skeptics Dictionary book, especially the last paragraph. Note too the links underneath. (With apologies to the author Mr. Robert Todd Carroll for not obtaining permission to link to his site.)

Without knowing your friend, and recalling what I was like when it came to woo-woo topics, there's probably not that much you can do except be an example of critical thinking. Your friend is probably searching for some sort of meaning and stability. It's up to everyone to find their own way, I guess, though it's good you're concerned. Leaving relevant literature laying around may be a good idea. Some people don't like being preached to, though I sometimes as leading questions to woo people, like "what does that do?" or "how do you know that works?" or "how much did that cost?" to get them thinking. If I'm feeling really irked I'll just blurt out a statistic or scientific fact to blow away the woo that's bothering me.

 

[logical muse]

There was an astral travelling girl at my high school when I was a student. She was my girlfriend for a while. She once told me she 'visited' me at night.

If I'd believed that I would have put on a show for her.

 

[disfunkster]

There was an astral travelling girl at my high school when I was a student. She was my girlfriend for a while. She once told me she 'visited' me at night.

If I'd believed that I would have put on a show for her.

I once had a girlfriend that was psychic, but she broke up with me before we met.

:-(

 

[logical muse]

I once had a girlfriend that was psychic, but she broke up with me before we met.

:-(

She might start going out with you again after you die.

 

[Belz...]

Hypnotism can be dangerous in some cases. The mentioned DVD shows a therapist getting someone "recover" their suppressed memory of being abducted by aliens. She has a therapy group, and charges big bucks to "assist" people who have been abducted. One lady *sigh* beleives she has an alien family and has drawn a picture of them. These people have been and will be in "therapy" for years.

Same problem with multiple-personnalities. For some reason, the patient never shows any signs of the "disease" before treatment. As the treatment goes on, the personnalities keep multiplying. I call foul on the part of the psi.

 

[ObscureReferenceMan]

I can't say about hypnosis in general, but I will declare "shennanigans" on hypnotic regression. Besides the usual arguments of the regressors "leading" the regressees. I remember watching a (TLC?) documentary where one woman was being regressed to her past life as a French woman from the time of the French Revolution. But instead of speaking French, she spoke in a (bad) French accent! Wha?!?

 

[HypnoPsi]

Hypnotism can be dangerous in some cases.

Anything can be dangerous when it's misused - such as a kitchen knife, or bottle or anything. There is nothing, however, about hypnosis that makes it particularly dangergous. Indeed, it may very well be considerably safer than standard talking therapies because, like meditation, it increases activity in the frontal lobes (the rational/logical/analytic parts of the brain), allowing us to exercise more control over the Id-esq limibic system (emotional reasoning).

You can read all about the interaction between the limibic system and frontal lobes in terms of the supervisory attentional system (the SAS) here: http://www.uclm.es/inabis2000/posters/files/037/resultad.htm and here: http://www.uclm.es/inabis2000/posters/files/037/conclus.htm

Not to mention hypnotists who want to get a child to confess someone sexually molested them, when in fact that may never have happened.

Why single out hypnotists here? As the BFMS recongises there is no legitimate reason for this (http://www.bfms.org.uk/site_pages/myths_page.htm).

Hypnosis is just a pleasantly relaxed state of focussed attention and nothing more.

Would anyone like their teeth drilled without a local anaesthetic? Why should anyone assume that talking about your troubles in a nervous, tearful, highly excited state is better exploring them in a pleasantly relaxed state of focussed attention?

Hypnosis is just guided meditation (a treatment legendary for helping us focus, concetrate and manage stress).

Check "http://www.skepdic.com/hypnosis.html"

Carroll's page fails to differentiate adequately between socio-cognitive theorists and state theorists (believers in automatism).
_
HypnoPsi

 

[luchog]

Same problem with multiple-personnalities. For some reason, the patient never shows any signs of the "disease" before treatment. As the treatment goes on, the personnalities keep multiplying. I call foul on the part of the psi.

That's patently untrue. There are a significant number of cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder (the term "multiple personalities" is a misnomer which was corrected in DSM IV) where symptoms began far in advance of treatment, some of which have never had treatment of any sort. I know two personally.

Unfortunately, like many other purely psychological diseases, it can be induced by a sufficiently skilled therapist; particularly in an already unstable patient. Which has resulted in genuine DID cases being lumped in with those created by unscrupulous and inexperienced therapists; and it's unfortunate association with the related False Memory Syndrome.

 

[Belz...]

That's patently untrue. There are a significant number of cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder (the term "multiple personalities" is a misnomer which was corrected in DSM IV) where symptoms began far in advance of treatment, some of which have never had treatment of any sort. I know two personally.

If I remember correctly, there are only something like 200 confirmed cases of this disorder in RECORDED HISTORY. And, even so, I'd be VERY suspicious if a psi tells me I have 500 distinct personnalities. OR MORE. How could he keep track of that ?

See:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9805/witch.html

Unfortunately, like many other purely psychological diseases, it can be induced by a sufficiently skilled therapist; particularly in an already unstable patient. Which has resulted in genuine DID cases being lumped in with those created by unscrupulous and inexperienced therapists; and it's unfortunate association with the related False Memory Syndrome.

Though I doubt the psi is doing it purposely. I think he's just applying his belief system.

 

[luchog]

If I remember correctly, there are only something like 200 confirmed cases of this disorder in RECORDED HISTORY. And, even so, I'd be VERY suspicious if a psi tells me I have 500 distinct personnalities. OR MORE. How could he keep track of that ?

See:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9805/witch.html

Well, first, anything a "psi" says is pretty well bogus, anyway. But that's really beside the point.

I'm familiar with the Piper article; and i'm surprised anyone actually quotes the man, since he's fairly well known locally as a bit of a crank (I have aquaintances in the industry who have worked with him personally). I'll stick with the peer-reviewed journals and DSM IV, since, although they've been known to be wrong, at least they're backed with scientific scholarship, and corrected when warranted. Piper has done some good work in debunking False Memory; but in doing so, has also tended to lump anything even remotely related, such as PTSD, under the same umbrella, rather than admit that the abuses that exist do not necessarily invalidate the existence of the disorder. While he doesn't necessarily come right out and claim that such disorders are fundamentally non-existent outside of treatment-induced instances; many others have used his writings as support for such a declaration. And he has a tendency to be dismissive of things that don't fit his rather fossilized viewpoint.

In any case, there are certainly more than 200 confirmed cases in the literature that cannot be attributed to therapist influence. And there are a whole lot of cases, both historically or contemporarily, that go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed (atypical schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, unresponsive to treatment, have been common misdiagnoses); often because of being masked by drug abuse (self-medication) and other self-destructive behaviour. I've personally worked with a not-insignificant number of them.

It's not surprising that it's still controversial, considering how long it took the medical community to accept PTSD (which is still debated by some fringe groups) as a valid psychological disorder. Something which can also be induced by an unskilled or unethical therapist, and which is also linked with False Memory Syndrome.

Psychology is far from an exact science, and as a discipline is still in it's infancy. There's a whole lot that is still not understood, or poorly understood, about the workings of the human psyche. Old-fashioned mechanistic approaches like Piper's have proven far too limited.

 

[ysabella]

My favorite quote from the Penn&Teller episode was from Randi. He said, "Astral trips? I call them half-astral trips..."