Democrats Move to Ensure No More AOCs

I'm still totally lost on the narrative here.

Okay so the Democratic Party hasn't been Progressive enough and that somehow drove voters to... the far right.

So if the "face" of the Democratic Party was more AOC and less Nancy Pelosi the far right voters would be more attracted to the Democratic Party.

Is "Sour grapes, my really progressive candidate didn't get the nom so I'm either going to just not vote for the more mainstream Democratic candidate, not vote at all, or vote for the cartoonishly evil racist the other party put up" really the demographic that people thinks is going swing 2020?

Or hell I'm stop speaking in hypotheticals. Does anyone here on this board who would vote for a progressive Democratic nominee if they got the nomination, plan on if a mainstream Democrat gets the nomination instead not voting, voting for Trump, or voting for the progressive candidate instead of the "official" Democratic nominee in 2020?

Where are all these "Super-progressive or nothing" voters who are going jump in the ice bath if the Jacuzzi is only "mostly warm" instead of "blazing hot?"
 
I'm still totally lost on the narrative here.

Okay so the Democratic Party hasn't been Progressive enough and that somehow drove voters to... the far right.

So if the "face" of the Democratic Party was more AOC and less Nancy Pelosi the far right voters would be more attracted to the Democratic Party.

Is "Sour grapes, my really progressive candidate didn't get the nom so I'm either going to just not vote for the more mainstream Democratic candidate, not vote at all, or vote for the cartoonishly evil racist the other party put up" really the demographic that people thinks is going swing 2020?

What? :confused:

Are you complaining about some of the "Bernie Bros" and the like with caricatures?

Or hell I'm stop speaking in hypotheticals. Does anyone here on this board who would vote for a progressive Democratic nominee if they got the nomination, plan on if a mainstream Democrat gets the nomination instead not voting, voting for Trump, or voting for the progressive candidate instead of the "official" Democratic nominee in 2020?

Where are all these "Super-progressive or nothing" voters who are going jump in the ice bath if the Jacuzzi is only "mostly warm" instead of "blazing hot?"

Not so sure about "Super-progressive or nothing," but... one of the drivers in voter apathy is people believing the claims that Democrats and Republicans just aren't actually different in particularly meaningful ways, regardless of the evidence to the contrary. They've taken to heart half-truths like "All politicians are corrupt" and similar lies/false equivalences. These people can be found across the political spectrum, but, if accepted, likely affects participation more the more liberal the group is, given the underlying differences in values between liberals and conservatives.
 
What? :confused:

Are you complaining about some of the "Bernie Bros" and the like with caricatures?

I'm not "complaining" about anything. I'm looking for context and trying to understand what exactly the Democratic Party is starting to fracture over at... pretty much literally the lest opportune time to do that.

We have X number of Democratic supporting traditional, mainstream Democrats. We have Y number of Democrats supporting more progressive candidates.

So if the Dems nominate, we'll use Pelosi as an example, this will alienate, to some degree, the "Progressive Democrats."

If they nominate Harris, again just as a Ur example, this will alienate the more mainstream democrats.

1. Which choice will lead to more voters just staying home?
2. Which choice will lead to more voters switching sides totally to the Republican?
3. Which choice has the most risk of splitting the vote between two candidates?

The general tone seems to be we'll "lose" (either to apathy, split votes, or full on lane crossing) more voters if we don't back a progressive candidate, but even if it's the other way around the same question needs to be asked.

I'm asking the people who are going to vote Democrat only if their candidate(s) of choice get the nomination talk about that. I think it's good information to have.

Who are these people who are going to stay home, vote for Trump, or vote for a non-nominated candidate and what are their reasoning? I want to hear from them.
 
I'm not "complaining" about anything. I'm looking for context and trying to understand what exactly the Democratic Party is starting to fracture over at... pretty much literally the lest opportune time to do that.

Hmm? Starting to fracture? The Democratic Party has been something of a disparate mess, aka "Big Tent" party for a long time. I didn't think that this was anything new. I would dare to say that it's probably actually more unified these days with the increase in party polarization than it used to be.

As for some of the visibility... it may be worth remembering that the MSM is largely slightly right-wing, given the directions of the owners, even if the reporters themselves are more likely to lean a bit to the left... and that things like Warren's progressive push to break up some of the really big corporations poses a threat to them, which has led to them playing up the divisions and trying to shape things a bit back to their favor. That includes playing up this particular division and taking a whole lot of swipes at progressives where they think they can get away with it and playing up, for example, Biden, by quite a lot even long before he announced his run and having remarkably different reactions to say, a Red Wave and a Blue Wave in Congressperson selection. Red Wave - Mandate of the People! Mandate of the People! Mandate of the People! Blue Wave with a distinctly Progressive flavor - Oh, that happened? Moving on.

We have X number of Democratic supporting traditional, mainstream Democrats. We have Y number of Democrats supporting more progressive candidates.

So if the Dems nominate, we'll use Pelosi as an example, this will alienate, to some degree, the "Progressive Democrats."

If they nominate Harris, again just as a Ur example, this will alienate the more mainstream democrats.

1. Which choice will lead to more voters just staying home?
2. Which choice will lead to more voters switching sides totally to the Republican?
3. Which choice has the most risk of splitting the vote between two candidates?

The general tone seems to be we'll "lose" (either to apathy, split votes, or full on lane crossing) more voters if we don't back a progressive candidate, but even if it's the other way around the same question needs to be asked.

This actually is a harder question. There's a lot of people doing what people tend to do... drawing favorable conclusions to their position based on questionable data and frequently using that to combat other conclusions based on questionable data. This is further complicated by trolls, US and foreign, trying to chip in and get candidates that they prefer selected, whether to make Trump more likely to win or to limit the meaningfulness of the win. There's a Republican push to get Marianne qualified for the next debate with lots and lots of $1 donations, for example, and there's Gravel being pushed by anarchists, of course, to name a couple of the open troll moves, as well as a hoard of right-winger advice columns to the Democrats to go right and maybe, just maybe, they'll deign to give their votes to the Democrats. Well, maybe not them, but people like them. Given MSM, center left and further voices get very little attention much of the time. Either way, there's usually the implicit assumption that "independent" means "center," rather than "across the political spectrum, just not officially Democrat or Republican."


I'm asking the people who are going to vote Democrat only if their candidate(s) of choice get the nomination talk about that. I think it's good information to have.

Who are these people who are going to stay home, vote for Trump, or vote for a non-nominated candidate and what are their reasoning? I want to hear from them.

Hmm. That depends a bit on who and why. All of the candidates will have people who don't want to vote for them for one reason or another. It sounds more like you're asking about the few who go "my candidate or protest vote," like a chunk of the "Bernie Bros" famously did... and the situation now isn't quite the same as it was in 2015/2016, so that group's likely not quite as fixed on him. To delve into some of the underlying reasons for those Bernie Bros, though... There's a lot of people who want substantial change for the better - away from the current trends of, well, them being effectively screwed over, bit by bit, as rich people and the corporations associated with them profit off them more and more, then casually discard them. With the government clearly working to help the rich people more and more and helping them less and less. If a Democrat's promising status quo, that's not actually good for them, which makes it more likely that they become apathetic or engage in behavior that would harm themselves. For people who are leery of each of the rest, there are plenty of reason. Wall Street democrats might be forced to choose between taking a hit to their short-term profits and general political influence when faced with Warren or Bernie or voting for Trump for the sake of short-term checkbook balances, to poke at another side of things, though that's not specifically the "My candidate or else!" that you're asking for.
 
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So if the Dems nominate, we'll use Pelosi as an example, this will alienate, to some degree, the "Progressive Democrats."

If they nominate Harris, again just as a Ur example, this will alienate the more mainstream democrats.

1. Which choice will lead to more voters just staying home?
2. Which choice will lead to more voters switching sides totally to the Republican?
3. Which choice has the most risk of splitting the vote between two candidates?
4. Which choice will lead to a Democrat party that might actually finally start standing up to the Republicans instead of continuing to let the Republicans get away with anything & everything all the time?

I'm asking the people who are going to vote Democrat only if their candidate(s) of choice get the nomination talk about that. I think it's good information to have.

Who are these people who are going to stay home, vote for Trump, or vote for a non-nominated candidate and what are their reasoning? I want to hear from them.
There may be very few, even practically none, but they also aren't the real question for a general election. The real question in general elections is who are the people who don't often vote at all but might sometimes if given the motivation they need.
 
I'm not "complaining" about anything. I'm looking for context and trying to understand what exactly the Democratic Party is starting to fracture over at... pretty much literally the lest opportune time to do that.

We have X number of Democratic supporting traditional, mainstream Democrats. We have Y number of Democrats supporting more progressive candidates.

So if the Dems nominate, we'll use Pelosi as an example, this will alienate, to some degree, the "Progressive Democrats."

If they nominate Harris Sanders, again just as a Ur example, this will alienate the more mainstream democrats.

1. Which choice will lead to more voters just staying home?
2. Which choice will lead to more voters switching sides totally to the Republican?
3. Which choice has the most risk of splitting the vote between two candidates?

The general tone seems to be we'll "lose" (either to apathy, split votes, or full on lane crossing) more voters if we don't back a progressive candidate, but even if it's the other way around the same question needs to be asked.

I'm asking the people who are going to vote Democrat only if their candidate(s) of choice get the nomination talk about that. I think it's good information to have.

Who are these people who are going to stay home, vote for Trump, or vote for a non-nominated candidate and what are their reasoning? I want to hear from them.

Mainstream democrats won't sit it out because Harris is leading.

But some progressives honestly might.
 
Because she can recognize a hint when it drops on her head at terminal velocity.
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.
 
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.

Perhaps you shouldn't respond to old posts without reading for context. Doubly ironic in this particular case.
 
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.

She wants the wars to stop.

Support her.
 
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

Bartender is what you know about her, therefore that is literally all she has ever done in life.



But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.

I smell projection.
 
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.

Found your problem, it appears you're stuck in 1955. You should see all the neat things women can do when you give them a pair of shoes!
 
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

Well, there are those degrees in International Relations and Economics. But you forgot about those, I'm sure. I'm certain you're still steaming that the video of her dancing in a school video didn't crush her the way you hoped.

Since arriving, she has proposed and worked on multiple bills, even seeking to work on one with Ted Cruz, not a man known for agreeing with socialists. Of course, since those bills weren't giving billionaires tax breaks or gutting the ACA you think they must be dumb.

She's managed to get Fox News to go absolutely psychotic on her. This took little more than being elected and being slightly progressive. They cannot go a day without mentioning her, sometimes not even an hour.

During her attendance on various committees she has asked critical questions, especially of Michael Cohen. During the same appearances the various GOP sycophants stumbled and tripped over themselves trying to show their loyalty to Trump.

She's a hell of a lot more competent than the racist, psychotic, incompetent, failed businessman in the White House.
 
Well, there are those degrees in International Relations and Economics.

I'm not sure why people are impressed with degrees. They shouldn't be. At the undergraduate level it mostly just takes money (your own or borrowed) to get one. Even at the graduate level, outside of competence in very specific technical fields it's mostly just an indicator of persistence, which has some value but not all that much. The flip side of this is that the lack of a degree doesn't indicate much either.

And I'm not saying this to bash AOC. Merely that her degrees don't tell us what her competence is. Different people have come to very different conclusions about what her talents are, and I'm not interested in getting into that fight, but nobody's opinion in either direction is actually based on her degrees.
 
I'm not sure why people are impressed with degrees. They shouldn't be. At the undergraduate level it mostly just takes money (your own or borrowed) to get one. Even at the graduate level, outside of competence in very specific technical fields it's mostly just an indicator of persistence, which has some value but not all that much. The flip side of this is that the lack of a degree doesn't indicate much either.

I am certain that you are discussing that Wharton Degree that Trump would tell everyone about every 1.26 seconds.

And I'm not saying this to bash AOC. Merely that her degrees don't tell us what her competence is. Different people have come to very different conclusions about what her talents are, and I'm not interested in getting into that fight, but nobody's opinion in either direction is actually based on her degrees.

The comment was that she had zero qualifications besides being a bartender. So how should I take this as anything other than an AOC bashing?

Seriously, do you want a building designed by an 'architect' without a degree? Botany done by someone who just toyed with some plants in their backyard? Do you trust a cosmological model designed by someone without any work in astronomy or physics?

This is a really, really dumb comment and I have to wonder if you would have said it in a thread that was not about a Democrat.
 
I am certain that you are discussing that Wharton Degree that Trump would tell everyone about every 1.26 seconds.

It applies to that too, yes. And again, nobody actually voted for or against Trump on the basis of his degree. People aren't voting for him because of his degree, and no possible degree would change the mind of anyone voting against him. The only point of such arguments is to try to make supporters of the other side look bad, but neither side actually cares. The debate is full of sound and fury, but it signifies nothing.

The comment was that she had zero qualifications besides being a bartender. So how should I take this as anything other than an AOC bashing?

Of course it's AOC bashing. I'm not suggesting you take it any other way. I'm saying that any decent argument in favor of her qualifications isn't going to rely on her degrees. And maybe you can make one, since she wasn't only a bar tender before getting elected. But the degree just doesn't mean much.

Seriously, do you want a building designed by an 'architect' without a degree?

What part of "competence in very specific technical fields" did you not understand? Plus, of course, the safety of a building is largely the responsibility of an engineer, not an architect.

This is a really, really dumb comment

Anything can be dumb if you deliberately misunderstand it.

and I have to wonder if you would have said it in a thread that was not about a Democrat.

I'll say it in any thread where someone tries to justify the qualifications of a politician on the basis of their degree. And yet again, are you seriously trying to say that AOC's degree is why you support her? That you wouldn't support her if everything else about her was the same but she didn't have that degree? Wouldn't that be pretty stupid?
 
OK, so when someone comes in with "There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did"

And the reply comes that she had two degrees that are actually quite relevant to government work. (I did fail to mention all her local community work)

So, all of a sudden, "Degrees don't count!!"

Gotcha.
 

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