Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

[ThatGuy11200]

Only that a majority voted for leaving and that the government and main opposition party promised that they would therefore leave.

If you continue to believe that economic forecasts (nearly always wrong) are more important than democracy, that's fine. There's at least one political party that has 'democrat' in its name that believes the same.

I believe that a vote that took place several years ago can be superseded by a vote today, based on up-to-date information. It's rather like having general elections every few years, rather than sticking with the result of one election forever. Because, over time, people may change their minds and demographics change, which changes what the 'majority' want.

The form of democracy that you seem to want - where the results of a vote are set in stone and cannot ever be changed - is stupid in the extreme.

 

[Lothian]

Only that a majority voted for leaving and that the government and main opposition party promised that they would therefore leave.

If you continue to believe that economic forecasts (nearly always wrong) are more important than democracy, that's fine. There's at least one political party that has 'democrat' in its name that believes the same.

A majority of the electorate didn't vote to leave.
Vote leave promised free trade with the EU. If that promise is broken with a hard brexit you will not be delivering what many leave voters voted for and you will not have democracy.
If you disagree and think the majority want a hard brexit you can't object to another referendum on that point.
You know however it is not what people want and that is why you object to another vote. Put any definite alternative set of arrangements against remain and you lose comfortably.

 

[catsmate]

Not really, as it undermines the whole concept of the 'European Union' when one of the major nations departs.

You mean when the millstone around the neck of European integration is finally dropped into the cesspit to sink alone?
Brexit will be a boon to those who favour tighter EU integration.

 

[catsmate]

Yeah. I mean, would it really be so bad if UK were like Norway?
I remember someone relevant making that recommendation a few years back.

McHrozni

For many Conservatives and their ilk it would be unacceptable.

 

[catsmate]

Primacy of Parliament was established 100 years before that. The English colonies in North America were rebelling against a Democracy not a dictatorship.

What proportion of the GB population was enfranchised in 1776? Are you familiar with: ‘faggot’ voters, the 'forty shilling freeholder', Old Sarum, poll books, 'pocket' boroughs, the 'potwalloper qualification', the borough of Tregony, non-resident Freemen, Corporation boroughs et cetera?

 

[catsmate]

A not unreasonable comparison.

 

[catsmate]

I believe that a vote that took place several years ago can be superseded by a vote today, based on up-to-date information. It's rather like having general elections every few years, rather than sticking with the result of one election forever. Because, over time, people may change their minds and demographics change, which changes what the 'majority' want.

The form of democracy that you seem to want - where the results of a vote are set in stone and cannot ever be changed - is stupid in the extreme.

Indeed.

 

[ceptimus]

I believe that a vote that took place several years ago can be superseded by a vote today

Believe what you like. When the vote took place it was known that it would take an absolute minimum of two years before the result could be implemented: remainers who don't know how to accept defeat have fought tooth and nail and managed to extend that period by an extra year.

During the three year period we've had another election where the two parties that did best again promised that they would implement the result of the referendum.

When politicians promise to do something, it's the electorate's responsibility to hold those politicians' feet to the fire and make sure they deliver on their promise. Incompetent dithering and delay by those politicians is no excuse for them ultimately to do the exact opposite of what they promised, no matter how much losing remainers would like it to be so.

 

[Nessie]

Believe what you like. When the vote took place it was known that it would take an absolute minimum of two years before the result could be implemented: remainers who don't know how to accept defeat have fought tooth and nail and managed to extend that period by an extra year.

Those wanting to leave have also been part of the delay, by failing to agree on a plan to leave.

During the three year period we've had another election where the two parties that did best again promised that they would implement the result of the referendum.

Politicians often promise what cannot be delivered and complete U turns.

When politicians promise to do something, it's the electorate's responsibility to hold those politicians' feet to the fire and make sure they deliver on their promise. Incompetent dithering and delay by those politicians is no excuse for them ultimately to do the exact opposite of what they promised, no matter how much losing remainers would like it to be so.

If the vote had been the other way, the leave campaign would have continued, strengthened by only losing by a small margin.

It is not incompetence and dithering that has caused the delay, it is an inability to reach an agreement over a very complex issue that the entire country is very divided over. Parliament is merely reflecting the people.

 

[Wudang]

Those wanting to leave have also been part of the delay, by failing to agree on a plan to leave.

Exactly. Any Brexit plan, whether hard or saoft, is immediately pounced on by other Brexiteers saying that isn't what they voted for.

 

[Pixel42]

This delusion that it's Remainers who have delayed Brexit rather than Brexiteers is yet another example of how easily fooled Leave supporters are.

 

[Nessie]

Exactly. Any Brexit plan, whether hard or saoft, is immediately pounced on by other Brexiteers saying that isn't what they voted for.

The root of the problem is Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees Mogg etc avoided coming up with a plan. They are not detailed plan people. They like broad brushes and big policy and pronouncements. They are big personalities who want to lead.

Then, when it came to detail time, it all fell apart because the details really matter, they are super complex and those driving the change, Farage, Johnson etc cannot cope.

Historians will look back on this and they will identify the lack of a plan from those who wanted to leave as the cause of all the problems.

 

[ceptimus]

This delusion that it's Remainers who have delayed Brexit rather than Brexiteers is yet another example of how easily fooled Leave supporters are.

Do you really believe that if remainer MPs had accepted the result (and their party manifestos in most cases) and voted in favour of leaving (or merely abstained) that we wouldn't have left already?

 

[catsmate]

This delusion that it's Remainers who have delayed Brexit rather than Brexiteers is yet another example of how easily fooled Leave supporters are.

The Dumb, the Desperate and the Deplorable.

 

[ceptimus]

The root of the problem is Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees Mogg etc avoided coming up with a plan.

They came up with a plan. The plan was to continue trading with the EU on the best available terms, while not allowing the EU any control over our money, laws, and borders.

Remainers frustrated the plan by offering the EU the hope that they might be able to reverse the result of the referendum, or at least water it down the point where it had no real effect. That's why we're in the current mess. It's the height of hypocrisy by remain MPs to then attempt to blame the mess on leave MPs.

 

[jimbob]

They came up with a plan. The plan was to continue trading with the EU on the best available terms, while not allowing the EU any control over our money, laws, and borders.
Remainers frustrated the plan by offering the EU the hope that they might be able to reverse the result of the referendum, or at least water it down the point where it had no real effect. That's why we're in the current mess. It's the height of hypocrisy by remain MPs to then attempt to blame the mess on leave MPs.

That sounds like a great plan, but it needs a few details. For example how does it affect the Good Friday Agreement? Maybe remaining in the Customs Union would allow that. After all it was what the probably next PM was promising.

ETA: I have a plan to become rich. It just needs one hundred thousand people to each give me ten pounds. I haven't worked out the detail how to persuade them, but that's just details.

 

[Nessie]

They came up with a plan. The plan was to continue trading with the EU on the best available terms, while not allowing the EU any control over our money, laws, and borders.

Remainers frustrated the plan by offering the EU the hope that they might be able to reverse the result of the referendum, or at least water it down the point where it had no real effect. That's why we're in the current mess. It's the height of hypocrisy by remain MPs to then attempt to blame the mess on leave MPs.

That was the idea, it was not planned in any detail and it had numerous flaws, number one of which was making exaggerated/false claims regarding the limited influence the EU had on our money, laws and borders.

What they avoided doing, because they could not, was to come up with a properly researched plan that really could work.

They were like someone who has a idea for a business, who goes to the Dragons Den and it is clear they have not really thought it through at all. The Dragons see sense and refuse to invest. Unfortunately, there were not enough Dragons when it came to the referendum.

 

[catsmate]

They came up with a plan. The plan was to continue trading with the EU on the best available terms, while not allowing the EU any control over our money, laws, and borders.

Knowing of course that this would be unacceptable to the EU as it would be to anyone else. The UK wanted it's own selfish, greedy, way and didn't get it.

Remainers frustrated the plan by offering the EU the hope that they might be able to reverse the result of the referendum, or at least water it down the point where it had no real effect.

Rubbish.

That's why we're in the current mess. It's the height of hypocrisy by remain MPs to then attempt to blame the mess on leave MPs.

No. The current mess is because a political idiot called a referendum to sate the racist elements in the UK populace, who's support he wanted. Then he, and his party, failed to deliver on their ludicrous promises because reality intervened.
The EU stood up to the Brits' and their self-entitled whining.

 

[catsmate]

That sounds like a great plan, but it needs a few details. For example how does it affect the Good Friday Agreement? Maybe remaining in the Customs Union would allow that. After all it was what the probably next PM was promising.

That'd require thinking. Brexiteers seem utterly unable to manage that, or anything more intellectually challenging than whining "Brexit means Brexit".

ETA: I have a plan to become rich. It just needs one hundred thousand people to each give me ten pounds. I haven't worked out the detail how to persuade them, but that's just details.

Get a list of UKIP/Brexit/Conservative party members and canvass them for donations to deport brown people. That should do it.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

They came up with a plan. The plan was to continue trading with the EU on the best available terms, while not allowing the EU any control over our money, laws, and borders.

Remainers frustrated the plan by offering the EU the hope that they might be able to reverse the result of the referendum, or at least water it down the point where it had no real effect. That's why we're in the current mess. It's the height of hypocrisy by remain MPs to then attempt to blame the mess on leave MPs.

None so blind...