The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

[Vixen]

Why is it that when you agree with the judges, they are the "best educated and the brightest of their generation", but when you don't agree with them, they're "bent" and "illogical"?

Judges are no better at 'sniffing out a lie' than anyone else...and neither are police as studies have shown. Once again, you just make crap up whenever it suits you and present it as fact. Massei wasn't 'stupid' but he was illogical in many of his conclusions which is why he was overturned. See Hellmann and Marasca.

ETA: Being from the 'upper classes' is not a prerequisite for being intelligent or educated. I find it interesting that you felt the need to include that.

Maybe not in the USA but in Europe the establishment does tend to be run by...the establishment.

British High Court and Supreme Court judges and the House of Lords law lords tend to be barons, earls and lords. Hellmann came from some noble Germanic-Italian family.

 

[Bill Williams]

The trial judges who are generally of the upper classes, best educated and the brightest of their generation? Bill Williams sitting behind his keyboard knows better than criminal judges who have dealt with all kinds of criminals and are experts at sniffing out a lie when they hear one. (cf Massei's exchange with Knox when she claimed she banged on Mez' locked door because she was worried 'she might be hurt in there'. For Massei, this claim was like a fart in a lift and he deconstructed her BS elegantly and with verve. But no, according to BiWi he's a 'very stupid guy'.)

Ok, maybe Vixen SHOULD be hung out to dry on this.

But I had simply cut and pasted Judge Massei's own words. His words turned "might have beens" into certainties. It's there for all to see. I did not say that that makes him "a stupid guy". But everyone is free to draw their own conclusions.

I agree with Stacyhs. Vixen's confirmation bias is on display when she assigns some the labels of "bent" or "corrupt" and others as "upper classes, best educated and the brightest of their generation", without saying why, other than the conclusion to which they came.

 

[Bill Williams]

Meredith's DNA DID survive a thorough cleaning of the knife.

It's a good thing you believe judges are educated and from the upper classes, because the final judgment had one more "even if". Even if the DNA had been the victim's.....

even if it had been possible to attribute trace B with
certainty to Kercher’s genetic profile, as evidence in the trial it would not have been
decisive (not being a blood trace), taking into account the promiscuity and commonality
of interpersonal relationships, typical of students living away from home, which make it
plausible that a kitchen knife or other utensil could be moved from one home to
another and that, therefore, the confiscated knife could have been moved by Knox to
via della Pergola for domestic use, on the occasion of parties or other events, and thus
also used by Kercher.​

And this is stated **after** Marasca Bruno declared that it had never been demonstrated that Sample 36b had come from a blood source.

So..... I'd say that these upper class, exceptionally educated judges disagree with the simple citationless declaration of yours.

 

[Stacyhs]

Meredith's DNA DID survive a thorough cleaning of the knife.

Your say-so does not make it so. Nor do actual forensic scientists agree with you. Now, who am I to believe? You or forensic scientists? Tough choice!

Murderers might think they have committed the perfect crime but sometimes the victim comes back to haunt them with their calling card. For example, Steven Avery's car keys with Theresa Halbach's DNA and speck of blood in her car of Avery which Zellner despicably and falsely tried to claim was planted by the police.

What in the world does that have to do with anything? Do try and stick to the topic at hand instead of resorting to

 

[Stacyhs]

Maybe not in the USA but in Europe the establishment does tend to be run by...the establishment.

British High Court and Supreme Court judges and the House of Lords law lords tend to be barons, earls and lords. Hellmann came from some noble Germanic-Italian family.

Once again, you totally disregard the point in favor of some irrelevant piece of nonsense. To wit: judges you agree with are educated, bright, and from high class families. Those whom who disagree with are bent/corrupt/mafia influenced, bought off, blah blah blah...

 

[TruthCalls]

Skin is NOT porous. Its function is to act as a barrier to the outside world. Things like moisturisers work because they help prevent moisture from the skin escaping. (Water escapes from the skin faster than any moisturiser can keep it in.) Few things penetrate the skin, and if they do it is only superficially. One thing that DOES penetrate through, as far as the fourth layer, is Aloe Vera. Kept in the fridge, this is wonderfully cool and soothing for dry skin and I have never had an allergic reaction.

There are high resolution photos of the striation marks on the blade.

You can't see photos of someone's DNA so why would you expect to see an enlarged photo of minute scratches on a knife?

It's a quasi and unreasonable demand for evidence beyond the call of duty. Fingerprints are only taken once and nobody demands to see them in court. They just accept the experts' word the fingerprint is there, and it matches the defendant on up to eighteen to twenty points.

LOL.. I don't suppose it would help to point out that by definition porous means "possessing or full of pores", i.e., skin pores. Whatever.

If you wish to think it reasonable to believe DNA hiding out in the middle of a metal blade managed to survive a cleaning using bleach while blood and DNA hiding out on the handle and in the seam between the handle and blade could not, then go for it. It doesn't say much for your reasoning skills, but I learned a long time ago you'll rationalize anything if it suits your agenda.

Still waiting to hear your explanation for Stefanoni amplifying 36B but not 36C when both were "too low".

BTW, I find your blind faith in the quality and capabilities of forensic techs misguided and foolish. Somehow I gotta believe should you ever find yourself on the wrong side of a criminal complaint you might be just a bit more critical of how well they've done their job.

 

[bagels]

The trial judges who are generally of the upper classes, best educated and the brightest of their generation? Bill Williams sitting behind his keyboard knows better than criminal judges who have dealt with all kinds of criminals and are experts at sniffing out a lie when they hear one. (cf Massei's exchange with Knox when she claimed she banged on Mez' locked door because she was worried 'she might be hurt in there'. For Massei, this claim was like a fart in a lift and he deconstructed her BS elegantly and with verve. But no, according to BiWi he's a 'very stupid guy'.)

You write so many words to justify why you prefer the one judge that gave the (overruled) verdict you like. Maybe one day there will be a public peer respected advocate that reviews the case in favor of the prosecution and judge Massei? For now it's you and a half dozen idiots on twitter. Meanwhile the amount of MDs, PHDs, JDs, Barristers, etc that have trashed the prosecution's case is too many to list here. Your ability to remain oblivious to this onslaught of lopsidedness is actually impressive.

 

[Stacyhs]

How many unsupported claims has Vixen made in just the last few days?


1. Tertiary transfer does not occur.
2. Kercher's DNA literally survived a bleach bath.
3. Raff was photographed lying next to a mafia gangster.
4. Raff was seen hanging out with Italian mobsters.
5. Knox and Sollecito had all night to clean up and that is obviously what they tried to do.
6. Ex-slaves owners had laws passed counting ex-slaves only as 3/5th of a person.
7. That there was no trace of Knox at the scene of the murder is a myth.
8. Even if translates as even though.
9. AK and RS weren't 'acquitted' only 'annulled'.
10. C&V were referring only to the 'collection phase' when they said contamination could not be ruled out, and not during the analysis in the lab.
11. When the quote from C&V clearly states, 'and/or during the analyses", either I or
some other PIP 'added the last clause'.

Will Vixen now accuse me, again, of 'making up' all this?

 

[Matthew Best]

Those were all typos.

 

[Bill Williams]

We are being unsuccessfully sealioned.

 

[Stacyhs]

We are being unsuccessfully sealioned.

I never heard the term before. But, upon looking it up, I can see your point.

 

[Vixen]

It's a good thing you believe judges are educated and from the upper classes, because the final judgment had one more "even if". Even if the DNA had been the victim's.....

​

And this is stated **after** Marasca Bruno declared that it had never been demonstrated that Sample 36b had come from a blood source.

So..... I'd say that these upper class, exceptionally educated judges disagree with the simple citationless declaration of yours.

It's clear what happened. In the final appeal hearing, Bongiorno was allowed two and a half days and 360 pages of appeal compared to the other parties' 20 minutes strict (one A4 page of skeleton argument [as is conventional and normal]). Both Sicilian Bongiorno and Bruno (once prosecuted but cleared) have mafia links, the former even representing Andreotti against mafia charges, so it's all very fishy Marasaca and Bruno preferring Bongiorno's appeal over the others and it's no surprise the MR is consequently full of contradictions and flab, resurrecting the expunged Hellmann and reinstating the excoriated Conti & Vecchiotti who had been assigned to the dustbin of ignominy by Supreme Court Chieffi.

Of course, Marasca retired immediately afterwards so he doesn't have to worry about consequences but I wonder how he sleeps at night after his disgraceful performance in this matter.

 

[Vixen]

Once again, you totally disregard the point in favor of some irrelevant piece of nonsense. To wit: judges you agree with are educated, bright, and from high class families. Those whom who disagree with are bent/corrupt/mafia influenced, bought off, blah blah blah...

Stop changing the context. Bill Williams claimed Massei was some kind of a moron. I merely pointed it he was quite the reverse and probably more intelligent than people posting here.

 

[Vixen]

LOL.. I don't suppose it would help to point out that by definition porous means "possessing or full of pores", i.e., skin pores. Whatever.

If you wish to think it reasonable to believe DNA hiding out in the middle of a metal blade managed to survive a cleaning using bleach while blood and DNA hiding out on the handle and in the seam between the handle and blade could not, then go for it. It doesn't say much for your reasoning skills, but I learned a long time ago you'll rationalize anything if it suits your agenda.

Still waiting to hear your explanation for Stefanoni amplifying 36B but not 36C when both were "too low".

BTW, I find your blind faith in the quality and capabilities of forensic techs misguided and foolish. Somehow I gotta believe should you ever find yourself on the wrong side of a criminal complaint you might be just a bit more critical of how well they've done their job.

I will never commit a criminal offence in the first place.

 

[Vixen]

How many unsupported claims has Vixen made in just the last few days?


1. Tertiary transfer does not occur.
2. Kercher's DNA literally survived a bleach bath.
3. Raff was photographed lying next to a mafia gangster.
4. Raff was seen hanging out with Italian mobsters.
5. Knox and Sollecito had all night to clean up and that is obviously what they tried to do.
6. Ex-slaves owners had laws passed counting ex-slaves only as 3/5th of a person.
7. That there was no trace of Knox at the scene of the murder is a myth.
8. Even if translates as even though.
9. AK and RS weren't 'acquitted' only 'annulled'.
10. C&V were referring only to the 'collection phase' when they said contamination could not be ruled out, and not during the analysis in the lab.
11. When the quote from C&V clearly states, 'and/or during the analyses", either I or
some other PIP 'added the last clause'.

Will Vixen now accuse me, again, of 'making up' all this?

Knox and Sollecito were fairly and unequivocally rightly convicted after a lengthy, thorough and fair trial, heavily slanted in their favour and Massei bending over backwards to accommodate them.

 

[LondonJohn]

It's clear what happened. In the final appeal hearing, Bongiorno was allowed two and a half days and 360 pages of appeal compared to the other parties' 20 minutes strict (one A4 page of skeleton argument [as is conventional and normal]). Both Sicilian Bongiorno and Bruno (once prosecuted but cleared) have mafia links, the former even representing Andreotti against mafia charges, so it's all very fishy Marasaca and Bruno preferring Bongiorno's appeal over the others and it's no surprise the MR is consequently full of contradictions and flab, resurrecting the expunged Hellmann and reinstating the excoriated Conti & Vecchiotti who had been assigned to the dustbin of ignominy by Supreme Court Chieffi.

Of course, Marasca retired immediately afterwards so he doesn't have to worry about consequences but I wonder how he sleeps at night after his disgraceful performance in this matter.

Pathetic (and, as we've long come to expect, entirely evidence-free) levels of special pleading.

Sooner or later you're going to have to come to terms with the fact that you are 100% wrong: Knox and Sollecito never should have been found guilty by any court of anything at all to do with the Kercher murder (there is literally not one piece of credible, reliable evidence pointing to their participation), and it's a near-certainty that the murder was perpetrated by Guede, acting alone.

 

[LondonJohn]

Knox and Sollecito were fairly and unequivocally rightly convicted after a lengthy, thorough and fair trial, heavily slanted in their favour and Massei bending over backwards to accommodate them.

Ermmmm.....

1) You do realise, don't you, that in criminal trials there can never be any level of equivocation in any case (it's a purely binary outcome: guilty or not guilty)?

2) Once again, I strongly suggest that you read the Marasca MR slowly and carefully. You'll maybe then understand what the Supreme Court correctly concluded, and what pro-acquittal/pro-innocence commentators here had also long since correctly concluded: that the Massei and Nencini trials were in fact not fair or thorough, but rather they were incompetently run, they were based on terminally tainted/unreliable "evidence", and they in no way applied the law properly in the way they assessed evidence (choosing instead to start from the premise of unquestioningly believing the prosecution case).


Seriously, it's high time your "arguments" were based on a proper education - both in the law in general, and in the dynamics and verdicts in this particular case. But that will never happen of course: there are none so blind as those who will not see......

 

[Bill Williams]

Both Sicilian Bongiorno and Bruno (once prosecuted but cleared) have mafia links, the former even representing Andreotti against mafia charges,

You forgot to chuck in the Masons to your conspiracy-salad.

so it's all very fishy Marasaca and Bruno preferring Bongiorno's appeal over the others

Fishy!? Right on the heels of explaining their Mafia (but not Masonic) connections, the best you can come up with is that it is "fishy"?

and it's no surprise the MR is consequently full of contradictions and flab,

Yet it's good enough for you to claim your factiods about, "they ruled Knox was present", or "they ruled Knox was covering for Guede" nonsense. You should really make up your mind.

resurrecting the expunged Hellmann and reinstating the excoriated Conti & Vecchiotti who had been assigned to the dustbin of ignominy by Supreme Court Chieffi.

Neither expunged nor excoriated, but why let that get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

Of course, Marasca retired immediately afterwards so he doesn't have to worry about consequences but I wonder how he sleeps at night after his disgraceful performance in this matter.

Retiring is the sure sign one has foisted a successful conspiracy onto a legal system.

 

[Bill Williams]

Stop changing the context. Bill Williams claimed Massei was some kind of a moron. I merely pointed it he was quite the reverse and probably more intelligent than people posting here.

Huh!? No I didn't. I'd ask for a citation, but .... oh, never mind.

 

[TruthCalls]

I will never commit a criminal offence in the first place.

Neither did Amanda or Raffaele yet this became an issue for them.

You may never commit a criminal offense, but that doesn't mean you won't become a suspect in a criminal offense, and that's the point.