Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.
There's a possible debate about whether some Ts are just Gs in denial?
Eg:
"I'm female but I like females. I'm not gay maybe i'm just in the wrong body?"
or
"I'm male but I like males. I'm not gay maybe i'm just in the wrong body?".

There's a possible rabbit hole via the internet if you feel like that, it's reassurance all the way down.
 
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Summaries are nice.

Headline: How employers are preparing for a gender non-binary world

Last week, Quartz reported that financial services giant TIAA had rolled out guidelines in late May suggesting client-facing employees share their pronouns in introductions. Netflix now has recruiters do the same, as well as ask candidates about theirs in initial phone calls, one of several practices to accommodate non-binary employees or applicants. A new program from MasterCard will allow cardholders to swap out birth names that conflict with gender identity with the name they actually use.

I see some really great opportunities for trolling here. I have never in my life been asked what my preferred pronouns are. I'm (now) a middle-aged balding man with a beard and an unmistakably male voice, so I wouldn't normally expect to be asked that.

Here's some options:

https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/

ETA: besides pronouns, what is the proper way to address a non-binary person? Sir and Ma'am are out, I assume, so what is it?
 
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There's a possible debate about whether some Ts are just Gs in denial?
There's a possible debate about whether some HMs (=hetero males) who consume lesbian-theme pornography are in fact sexually aroused about being female and want to be a girl really and because they can't be they end up hating women so one gets all the trappings of misogyny writ large from these folks. Some think all of them are. Bit of a rabbit hole

#parody
 
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I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.


The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.
 
I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.
 
Other than marriage and "family" related financial benefits what rights were they being denied any other citizens would have?

Acceptance and respect CANNOT be legislated into the public mind for anyone. Race, ability/disability or preferences alike.
 
I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.

Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.

Like the ‘isn’t queer just gay’ question, the school of thought with people who like queer as an umbrella identifier is that they want a community that includes absolutely everyone who is not just plain “straight, and happy with the gender they came with” because there’s so much shared experience and empathy across everyone who just didn’t/doesn’t feel included in any of the mainstream, gendered, heterosexual common experiences that most people can relate to.

It’s fine if you were different and you didn’t care, but a lot of people feel bad about that stuff and want to belong somewhere and a lot of people want to belong to just the big club of ‘everybody else,’ and yes it gets awkward when you’re trying to name each segment of everybody else. And it gets awkward again when a lot of people wants to gatekeep exactly what kind of ‘everybody else’ counts and whether this particular person over here counts or not.
 
Other than marriage and "family" related financial benefits what rights were they being denied any other citizens would have?

Acceptance and respect CANNOT be legislated into the public mind for anyone. Race, ability/disability or preferences alike.

Depending on what state one lives in, one can be fired, evicted, or denied adoption for not being straight. So if you don't mind the risk of being unemployed, homeless, and losing your kids then sure, everything's great!
 
The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.
Rubbish. It was because it was only in the LGB "community" that many people who would now be called trans were accepted and felt free from fear and threats so could be who they wanted to. So "they" joined up with the other groupings in terms of activism.
 
Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.



Like the ‘isn’t queer just gay’ question, the school of thought with people who like queer as an umbrella identifier is that they want a community that includes absolutely everyone who is not just plain “straight, and happy with the gender they came with” because there’s so much shared experience and empathy across everyone who just didn’t/doesn’t feel included in any of the mainstream, gendered, heterosexual common experiences that most people can relate to.



It’s fine if you were different and you didn’t care, but a lot of people feel bad about that stuff and want to belong somewhere and a lot of people want to belong to just the big club of ‘everybody else,’ and yes it gets awkward when you’re trying to name each segment of everybody else. And it gets awkward again when a lot of people wants to gatekeep exactly what kind of ‘everybody else’ counts and whether this particular person over here counts or not.
Well I object the re-re-purposing of queer!
 
There's a possible debate about whether some HMs (=hetero males) who consume lesbian-theme pornography are in fact sexually aroused about being female and want to be a girl really and because they can't be they end up hating women so one gets all the trappings of misogyny writ large from these folks. Some think all of them are. Bit of a rabbit hole

#parody
Yeah, i suggested some As might be bs,

Then you came along suggesting that some Cs might be Ds which leads to some CS not wanting to be Ds and Fs are As and Bs are Es and then you mentioned misogyny.

Right, **** the alphabet.... where are you getting the misogyny from?
 
I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.

The first time I saw the "Q" I was told it stood for "questioning", as in people who were kind of gender neutral or really weren't sure about their gender or sexuality. I can't remember how long ago that was, but it was a while back. I think it was even LGBQ when I first saw it.

I've since seen it said that it refers to "queer" instead.

I suppose there isn't any "official" acronym.
 
Well I object the re-re-purposing of queer!

So do I, but I would like to go back to when it had no inherent sexual connotations. Sometimes it is a bit jarring to read Tolkien, with his references to "queer folk" or some such.
 
Sometimes it is a bit jarring to read Tolkien, with his references to "queer folk" or some such.

Tom Sawyer's still mighty gay, too.

You could check in the Mind Your Language thread as well.

People just have to learn to read contextually.
 
The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.

Rubbish. It was because it was only in the LGB "community" that many people who would now be called trans were accepted and felt free from fear and threats so could be who they wanted to. So "they" joined up with the other groupings in terms of activism.

Seeing you two argue is confusing to those of us who go off avatars.

Anyhow, given that "GLBT" goes back to the early 90s (e.g. this book) it seems fairly counterfactual to claim the "T" was tacked on after gays & lesbians had already "achieved all their legislative goals."
 
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Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.
Yeah, i agree which is why I said some.

I'm interested in this other example you gave, the highlighted.
What's happening there? Why do they want to go on hormone therapy, quit having breasts and get called Frank?
Seems to me they are aiming for a gender role.

Some people I have met, have taken hormone treatment with the goal to average out themselves so they aren't one gender or the other, so I couldn't accuse them of trying to conform to a gender role, they're a mixture of both.

Anyway, I thought everyone had family members that were L,g,b or T.
I have cousins/uncles/cousins kids/aunties etc and I thought it was common until I checked with other people and apparently it's not, so what do I know :)
 
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