Moderated Trump announces new concentration camps

[Cabbage]

Okay so let's sum up all the things we have to have a "civil debate about" before we're allowed to even discuss whether or not keeping kids in cages is bad.

- The exact definition of "concentration camp."
- AOC's place in the Democratic Party
- Everything every other country has done ever.
- Everything the Democratic Party has done ever.

Let's not forget an important one:

We Can't Blame Trump.

 

[kookbreaker]

Okay so let's sum up all the things we have to have a "civil debate about" before we're allowed to even discuss whether or not keeping kids in cages is bad.

- The exact definition of "concentration camp."
- AOC's place in the Democratic Party
- Everything every other country has done ever.
- Everything the Democratic Party has done ever.

It’s like some bizarre variation on SeaLioning.

 

[wareyin]

Okay so let's sum up all the things we have to have a "civil debate about" before we're allowed to even discuss whether or not keeping kids in cages is bad.

- The exact definition of "concentration camp."
- AOC's place in the Democratic Party
- Everything every other country has done ever.
- Everything the Democratic Party has done ever.

When engaging with people who have already stated that they are not interested in "good faith political debate," don't be surprised when they pull shenanigans instead of discussing the issue.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Keeping kids in cages is bad.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Maybe. And maybe ICE was in bad shape when he got there, and we didn't know it because Obama was better at not drawing attention to it.

By the way, assuming this is true, it makes Trump's zero tolerance policy even more foolish. Why would he put more responsibility on an already overburdened agency?

I know the Trump defender instinct is to blame Obama for everything, but it's not a good reflex. Think it through next time.

 

[uke2se]

It would probably be for the best if the next Democratic administration closed down ICE and re-instituted the old system. Could take the chance to get rid of all the bigots in the agency as well.

 

[kookbreaker]

By the way, assuming this is true, it makes Trump's zero tolerance policy even more foolish. Why would he put more responsibility on an already overburdened agency?

I know the Trump defender instinct is to blame Obama for everything, but it's not a good reflex. Think it through next time.

The tweets I listed above were based on a lawsuit filed in 2015. So that would be under Obama’s administration.

It’s fair to say that there were already problems with the organization, and Obama, in his efforts to placate conservatives already griping about immigration did let the situation in these places get poor. The lawyer notes that some changes were made after the lawsuit to improve the situation.

That being said, the Obama policy was not one of Zero Tolerance, Child Separation, Deliberate Cruelty, Long Term Incarceration, and promises of pardons should laws be violated.

Frankly, between what we are hearing, seeing, this whole immigration department needs a revamp. Top to bottom. Heads need to roll, and abject cruelty needs to stop being the end purpose.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That... and dealing with a sudden mass influx of immigration/asylum seekers is hard. Nobody is expecting perfection.

At this point most of us would settle for the abject, unapologetic evil being slightly less gleeful.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

I'm sure they do.

They are still making people drink out of toilets.

The whining about the terminology is a smokescreen and you are aiding it.

No, no. Liquid urns.

 

[Ziggurat]

Jesus.

Who cares what you call them? Forcing them to drink from toilets, and being subjected to mental\emotional\physical abuse is unacceptable. I couldn't give a **** what other country is doing it, we're supposed to be better than the rest. This is disturbing.

AOC is the only source that has claimed anyone was forced to drink from a toilet. Why do you believe her?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...s-in-threatening-manner-during-tour-witnesses

“So this is what happened with the migrant and drinking water from toilet: she wanted water, didn’t know how to use the faucet in the cell, and drank from the toilet. She never told AOC that we made her drink from the toilet. AOC, of course, changed it … This was when she [the migrant] was apprehended and brought into the facility,” according to the agent.
​

Huh. Not quite the same impression.

 

[William Parcher]

It doesn't even matter if the toilet water story is a hoax. There are other horrors. Like cannibalism. Because they aren't being fed.

 

[Ziggurat]

It doesn't even matter if the toilet water story is a hoax. There are other horrors. Like cannibalism. Because they aren't being fed.

I think you're joking, but honestly, I can't tell for sure.

 

[plague311]

AOC is the only source that has claimed anyone was forced to drink from a toilet. Why do you believe her?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...s-in-threatening-manner-during-tour-witnesses

“So this is what happened with the migrant and drinking water from toilet: she wanted water, didn’t know how to use the faucet in the cell, and drank from the toilet. She never told AOC that we made her drink from the toilet. AOC, of course, changed it … This was when she [the migrant] was apprehended and brought into the facility,” according to the agent.
​

Huh. Not quite the same impression.

So at best we have conflicting stories. I'm pretty sure even if it's slightly exaggerated you can look at the previous links from the lawsuit.

But hey, if that makes you feel better. Knock yourself out. I'm firmly confident that my stance that ICE isn't treating these people humanely is factual. AOC's statement aside. That wasn't the straw or anything.

It doesn't even matter if the toilet water story is a hoax. There are other horrors. Like cannibalism. Because they aren't being fed.

The ****? Oh, hyperbole in order to try and minimize the dumbass-ery going on at the border. You win +5 internet points for snarky nonsensical ********. Good work.

 

[I Am The Scum]

So at best we have conflicting stories. I'm pretty sure even if it's slightly exaggerated you can look at the previous links from the lawsuit.

There is overwhelming evidence, from multiple sources, that detainees are being held in conditions below the standard for convicted prisoners. Some posters here would prefer to nitpick the details of just how bad it is. I get the funny feeling that they're not the slightest bit interested in improving the conditions that the children are facing.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There is overwhelming evidence, from multiple sources, that detainees are being held in conditions below the standard for convicted prisoners.

The DHS Inspector General described the El Paso center as "dangerously overcrowded" with "standing room only conditions."

I'm not sure how we're supposed to "But Obama, but AOC, but other countries" our way out of that one, but I'm sure someone will try.

 

[plague311]

There is overwhelming evidence, from multiple sources, that detainees are being held in conditions below the standard for convicted prisoners. Some posters here would prefer to nitpick the details of just how bad it is. I get the funny feeling that they're not the slightest bit interested in improving the conditions that the children are facing.

Exactly. It makes no difference if what AOC said is true or not, other than giving her statements more weight in the future. In all honesty, she's slipped a few pegs and she does seem to be a bit of a sensationalist when she talks.

As you stated though, there is a mountain of other statements (the fact so many have died in custody alone, which is something that didn't happen with near the frequency under Obama so the "but but Obama" doesn't work there), that shows how ****** the refugees are being treated.

 

[JoeMorgue]

HEADLINE NEWS! AOC CLAIMS REFUGEES FORCED TO DRINK OUT OF TOILET! SECURITY FOOTAGE SHOWS IT WAS ACTUALLY THE BIDET. ENTIRE DEMOCRATIC PARTY RESIGNS IN SHAME! ALL DISCUSSION OF REFUGEE CAMP CONDITIONS NOW OVER, REPUBLICANS DECLARED THE WINNER.

People literally think that's what's gonna happen.

 

[theprestige]

By the way, assuming this is true, it makes Trump's zero tolerance policy even more foolish. Why would he put more responsibility on an already overburdened agency?

See, that is actually a good argument. We might say that zero tolerance is a good strategy in principle, but before we apply it we need to take some time to expand and improve the infrastructure to handle the extra load. Trump went to zero tolerance prematurely, and it's important that he step back and address the systemic deficiencies in ICE.

I know the Trump defender instinct is to blame Obama for everything, but it's not a good reflex. Think it through next time.

Our discussions don't have to be like this, you know. I'm not instinctively blaming Obama for everything, any more than you're instinctively blaming Trump for everything.

However, if the argument is that ICE is underfunded and systemically rotten, these are problems that predate the current administration. Here's an ICE fact sheet from 2009 about detention reform:
https://www.ice.gov/factsheets/2009detention-reform

It calls out several systemic problems, and outlines the then-director's plan to mitigate those problems. So we can ask, how many of those problems were fixed before Trump took office, and how many did he inherit? What role did the previous Chief Executive play in reforming ICE detention policies? What role did Congress play? These questions are not about instinctively blaming Obama. They are about figuring out what's really going on. What's going wrong and where to fix it.

I think we could probably find plenty of blame to go around: Successive administrations and legislatures that failed to really reform ICE, and Trump who half-assedly stresses the system without thought to its limitations.

You, too, seem to be actively looking for ways to end the discussion instead of continue it. If you're convinced that this is all about instinctively blaming Obama, then what's my incentive to keep discussing with you? Or is that not even a relevant question here?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yet another discussion we can have after we let the kids out of cages.

The house is burning down. We put the fire out now. We have a nice long "very civil discussion" about whether or not to elect a new Fire Marshall and redistrict the fire stations and redo the logos on the side of the firetrucks later.

 

[Ziggurat]

There is overwhelming evidence, from multiple sources, that detainees are being held in conditions below the standard for convicted prisoners. Some posters here would prefer to nitpick the details of just how bad it is.

It's not a nitpick. Whether AOC's characterization or the alternative is correct makes a HUGE difference. And I'm not the one who advanced AOC's claim as relevant. Take that up with plague311. He doesn't think it matters if it's true or not, but pushed it anyways.

I get the funny feeling that they're not the slightest bit interested in improving the conditions that the children are facing.

Of course. Because I must be evil.