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Moderated Trump announces new concentration camps

theprestige said:
So much for discussion.
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Well, let's let the record show that you are the one disengaging. I'm perfectly willing to talk about it, but I'm not about to kiss your ass and not bring up topics that might hurt your little feelings.
 
kookbreaker said:
They are still making people drink out of toilets.
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I'm skeptical.

The whining about the terminology is a smokescreen and you are aiding it.
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I'm not aiding anything by pointing out what the WP says. The world doesn't care about me enough to use me as aid for whatever political whatnot. Very few people will read what I wrote in this thread.
 
theprestige said:
I'm not saying AOC is in charge of funding. I'm saying that her role in this is pretty well defined, and the levers available to her for changing policy are well understood.

It'll be interesting to see how she continues to work on this issue during her tenure in the legislature.
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Well, Congress people investigate as one part of the funding process. (Although IMO there is some grandstanding as well.)

What I suspect is that this administration is crap at basic logistics. Detainees are probably foisted from agency to agency, or from department to department, like hot potatoes, without anyone asking, "What do we need to do to prepare for this for the next few days/weeks/months?"

IMO, people forget that the so-called "deep state" are the ones who keep institutions running. They're the ones with longer-term experience, especially given the turnover and turmoil at the top of this administration. AOC is just one freshman congresswoman. Arguably it's not her job to come up with detailed logistics. There are executive branch departments with thousands of employees whose job it is to keep things running as smoothly as possible. When a situation is this snarled up you don't fix it just by throwing money at it.

The guy at the top sets the tone and he loves chaos, encourages abuse of people in custody and has very little if any grasp of ethics. He treasures butt-kissing, incompetent toadies and tends to run off competent underlings. Thankfully he shows little appetite for actual warfare because he would suck at that too.
 
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Daily Mail said:
...But a CBP official said Monday in the early evening that plumbing fixtures at the locations Ocasio-Cortez visited are standard-issue jail appliances with sinks that dispense safe drinking water attached to toilets in a single unit.

'Of course that's what we have,' the official said. 'No one is drinking toilet water. They're drinking potable water from the sink attached to the toilet. It's what you would find in every municipal jail in the United States.'

A photo filed in a federal court case in 2016 illustrates the setup in a Tucson, Arizona CBP holding facility. The official confirmed that it's identical to what detainees at Texas border stations have access to.

After this story was published, Ocasio-Cortez confirmed on Twitter that '[t]his was in fact the type of toilet we saw in the cell.'

She also claimed 'there was just one' in the cell she saw, a'nd the sink portion was not functioning,' adding that Rep. Ayanna Pressley 'smartly tried to open the faucet, and nothing came out. So the women were told they could drink out of the bowl.'

Her other tweets were contradictory, with some suggesting she witnessed guards offering a toilet as a source of drinking water and others intimating that she heard stories from detainees.

Ocasio-Cortez tweeted in mid-afternoon that she didn't have photos of what she saw because 'CBP made us check our phones.'

A Washington Examiner reporter tweeted that two sources inside the building said the lawmaker 'refused to tour the facility.'...
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...erforming-oral-sex-secret-Facebook-group.html
 
theprestige said:
AOC is in Congress, which controls funding. Is that the remedy she's proposing?
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I'm pretty sure she'd like Donald Trump to reverse the policy that he established. Every moment of every day he passes up that opportunity. This could be resolved in an instant.

If nothing else, just read the intro section of the wiki article and tell me whether or not the policy should be rescinded.
 
The younger progressives in Congress (I refuse to allow this to be about one personality) wanted stricter controls on conditions and funding to reflect that. Speaker Pelosi put the Senate's bill up instead and it passed with 95 Democrats against.

Pelosi said this was to improve conditions now. Note the bill passed contains no mandate or mechanism for improving conditions.

So I'm thinking responsibility goes:

1) bigoted ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ in uniforms.
2) Trump
3) McConnell
4) Pelosi, Hoyer, and Schumer collectively
 
Minoosh said:
Well, Congress people investigate as one part of the funding process. (Although IMO there is some grandstanding as well.)
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Yep. I'm super pleased with Congresscritters on fact-finding missions. Could do without all the grandstanding, though.

What I suspect is that this administration is crap at basic logistics. Detainees are probably foisted from agency to agency, or from department to department, like hot potatoes, without anyone asking, "What do we need to do to prepare for this for the next few days/weeks/months?"
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Well, let me know if those suspicions are ever confirmed.

My understanding is that whatever logistical and systemic problems ICE has, they predate the current administration.

IMO, people forget that the so-called "deep state" are the ones who keep institutions running. They're the ones with longer-term experience, especially given the turnover and turmoil at the top of this administration.
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Wouldn't that mean your "deep state" is on the hook for the logistical failures at ICE?

AOC is just one freshman congresswoman.
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Which is why I think it's premature to give her press conferences a lot of weight. It's only her first rodeo.

Arguably it's not her job to come up with detailed logistics. There are executive branch departments with thousands of employees whose job it is to keep things running as smoothly as possible. When a situation is this snarled up you don't fix it just by throwing money at it.
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No argument from me, anyway. My point was simply that if her fact-finding mission finds that ICE does not have the funding to adequately support the current rate of immigration, she has a role in solving that problem. Freshman or not, she can certainly sponsor a funding bill.

On the other hand, if funding isn't part of the problem, there's probably not much she can do.

The guy at the top sets the tone and he loves chaos, encourages abuse of people in custody and has very little if any grasp of ethics. He treasures butt-kissing, incompetent toadies and tends to run off competent underlings. Thankfully he shows little appetite for actual warfare because he would suck at that too.
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Maybe. And maybe ICE was in bad shape when he got there, and we didn't know it because Obama was better at not drawing attention to it. "It's all Trump's fault somehow" seems like a good ending point to a discussion, not a good beginning. If we're already at that point in the conversation, that's my cue to disengage.
 
When something that gives huge profits is run very badly, it is a clear sign that the operators assume that it will be banned any moment.
If anyone on the government side believed in the whole process, they would make a strong effort to make it sustainable, scale-able, and affordable come future spending reviews.

But this is a clear case of money being thrown at a problem in the hopes of creating a moment of "shock and awe" that scares away migrants ... with no intention of actually changing anything long-term, but instead expecting the problem to just go away.
 
Venom said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with "tone policing" when we believe something sets the tone for vitriolic discussion bickering about it.

Calling them concentration camps is an attempt at controlling the narrative. Now I don't think she needs to apologize for saying it or anything but she (and Travis) should be mindful of how she frames things in the future.
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Yes and only conservatives are allowed to do that.
 
NWO Sentryman said:
So, after both countries recovered from ww2, why did Japan prosper and why did the Ussr stagnate and collapse? If diversity is a strength the reverse should have happened.
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No.

Why didn't you read what I wrote for comprehension, rather than repeat the very error I pointed out? Do you understand that strengths increase the likelihood of success, but don't guarantee it?
 
theprestige said:
The only reason I'm not discussing refugee procedures *right now* is because you refuse to discuss them. You won't even describe what you mean by "cages" and why it's so wrong.
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Do you think anyone here believes that? We've seen the pictures, we've read the stories. They are cages in the larger sense. You can call them locked detainment areas for all I care. The point is that both descriptors are ok so why don't we move on to whether it's a good thing that kids are kept there in those conditions and what to do about it?
 
plague311 said:
Forcing them to drink from toilets, and being subjected to mental\emotional\physical abuse is unacceptable.
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Assuming AOC can be trusted on this bit of information. Not saying she's lying, but let's say she strikes me as the type to paint her pictures with slightly brighter colours than her subject.

Minoosh said:
Even allowing that AOC might have been tempted to exaggerate, these conditions should not be acceptable.
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That goes without saying.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Yes and only conservatives are allowed to do that.
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Exactly. The push back against calling these concentration camps what they are is an attempt to control the conversation.

Let's all keep calling them what they are and pointedly refuse to play ball with the Trumpistas.
 
Okay so let's sum up all the things we have to have a "civil debate about" before we're allowed to even discuss whether or not keeping kids in cages is bad.

- The exact definition of "concentration camp."
- AOC's place in the Democratic Party
- Everything every other country has done ever.
- Everything the Democratic Party has done ever.
 
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