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Moderated Trump announces new concentration camps

Venom said:
We can always accept that it was probably said for dramatic effect and move on, but people want to bring the conversation back to this point and don't want to acknowledge what she was not so subtly doing. Perhaps too much time is devoted to this, but it cuts both ways.
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No. It doesn't cut both ways. One side is hairsplitting over term before we'll get around to "Keeping kids in cages is bad."

Literally nobody is demanding we have to call them "Concentration Camps" before we can talk about it.

That's the only point anyone who isn't pedantically hair splitting is trying to "bring the conversation back to" that whole "keeping kids in cages is bad" thing that keeps getting treated like it's some minor annoying side detail.

When you are faced with kids in cages, and your mind goes to tone policing the term used for the cages... you've got issues.
 
JoeMorgue said:
No. This is another hijack. Another hairsplit. Another "Let's have a civil discussion about the exact 'bad' thing that is happening before I'll admit it is bad."

I'm not gonna sit here and debate on the exact level of cage it's okay to keep a kid in with you.

And if I sat here and went back and forth with you until we had mathematically agreed that "Children must not be kept in cages bigger then X with bar dimensions of Y for periods of not less than Z, excepting in cases of temperatures above Q in which case stipulation W can be invoked..." we would get nowhere because you still wouldn't admit keeping them in the cages was wrong, you'd just hairsplit again into another subtopic.

You're Jabba-ing. Bad. Real bad. As bad as Jabba did. You're proving immortality with Bayesian Statistics as much as you're debating refugee procedures right now.
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The only reason I'm not discussing refugee procedures *right now* is because you refuse to discuss them. You won't even describe what you mean by "cages" and why it's so wrong.

You served in the military, didn't you? If you've ever been in an armory, or a motor pool, or a supply depot, you must have seen cages all the time, usually as a tool to securely subdivide a larger space. Nobody interested in honest debate would run around yelling that American GIs have to work in cages and that this is a humanitarian crisis for our armed forces.

You rebuke me for not wanting to discuss the topic, but the moment I offer to discuss the actual topic, you rebuke me for not just accepting your position without discussion.

You can't have it both ways, Joe.

I am willing to stipulate that there are problems with how these people are being housed. But I won't discuss the problems until you explain what they actually are. "Cages", like "concentration camps" covers too much ground to be useful here. It could mean anything from "perfectly cromulent way temporarily house a large number of sudden arrivals" to "horrible torture devices we don't even use at Gitmo". We won't know until we look at the details. If you won't discuss the details, why should I?

"Cages" is not a magic word like "abracadabra", Joe. It's not an incantation that magically proves every connotation you imagine it has, or magically wins every argument you deploy it in.

In which you deploy it.
 
theprestige said:
You won't even describe what you mean by "cages" and why it's so wrong.
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Do you realize how insane you sound right now?

"You won't even have a civil discussion with me about what it's so wrong to keep kids in cages."

You're right. I won't do that.
 
plague311 said:
Jesus.

Who cares what you call them? Forcing them to drink from toilets, and being subjected to mental\emotional\physical abuse is unacceptable. I couldn't give a **** what other country is doing it, we're supposed to be better than the rest. This is disturbing.
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But they are so profitable for people like John F. Kelly, I mean look at how little you have to spend to rake in that $750 a day. The financial companies running these things are making a killing and of course they can't possibly accept being triggered by calling them concentration camps when they fit the definition fine. You have to be properly politically correct and ignore the whole issue to be a real conservative after all.

These things are still popular with republicans after all. Must be the family values.
 
NWO Sentryman said:
Funny I recall "if Europe/australia/Japan can ban guns..." being a common talking point. And it's not whataboutism to point out that trump is not an outlier on immigration policies. And in the "civilised" world I have yet to see "let's welcome every single migrant with open arms!" Take hold, much the opposite.
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Pointing at other places as examples of how we should behave makes sense when you're pointing out good behaviors, not bad ones.
 
JoeMorgue said:
No. It doesn't cut both ways. One side is hairsplitting over term before we'll get around to "Keeping kids in cages is bad."

Literally nobody is demanding we have to call them "Concentration Camps" before we can talk about it.

That's the only point anyone who isn't pedantically hair splitting is trying to "bring the conversation back to" that whole "keeping kids in cages is bad" thing that keeps getting treated like it's some minor annoying side detail.

When you are faced with kids in cages, and your mind goes to tone policing the term used for the cages... you've got issues.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with "tone policing" when we believe something sets the tone for vitriolic discussion bickering about it.

Calling them concentration camps is an attempt at controlling the narrative. Now I don't think she needs to apologize for saying it or anything but she (and Travis) should be mindful of how she frames things in the future.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Do you realize how insane you sound right now?

"You won't even have a civil discussion with me about what it's so wrong to keep kids in cages."

You're right. I won't do that.
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I lost a lot of my enthusiasm for participating in this thread when two major sub-themes began to dominate it:

(1) The "I want an honest discussion but you haven't defined all the terms. We can't even begin to determine if separating little kids from their parents and keeping them under appalling conditions (as reported by visitors) is bad until we define what we mean by cages, toilets, food, clothing, parents, etc. You go first."

and

(2) But look, blah, blah's policy is even worse! Wash, rinse, repeat.

I see that a recent third defense of this evil has now appeared: if a politician or an ISF member appears to have over-dramatized any one aspect or another of these camps, then that makes the actual camps okay.

I have two kids, now adults. When they were small children my greatest nightmare was that they might be scared, or hungry, or cold, or hurt and I was somehow unable to help and comfort them. But this is exactly what these camps are doing to these children and their parents. This is a wrong that at its basic core is so fundamental and so deep that it calls into question how we see ourselves as civilized people; no exaggeration is necessary for this to be true. I am surprised by posters who are not so deeply disgusted at this very fundamental level that instead they are able to try to defend it for political points, or who seek to debate it as a hobby and as a fun use of sophistry. I presume several of these posters have children: can they not image their own children as the children in the camps? If so, would they be requesting the dimensions of the enclosures and the gauge of the wires before deciding if it were a bad thing or not? Or would they, like I, want the camps torn down now and the kids rescued now?

Defenses of barbaric behavior are not really useful components of a civil discussion.
 
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Giordano said:
I am surprised by posters who are not so deeply disgusted at this very fundamental level that instead they are able to try to defend it for political points, or who seek to debate it as a hobby and as a fun use of sophistry.
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I suspect some of the apologists - not just here, but in the broader world - are disgusted if they have absorbed any of the reporting done on this, and are trying to distance themselves with such measures. Even allowing that AOC might have been tempted to exaggerate, these conditions should not be acceptable.
 
Cabbage said:
Just wanted to pop in here to make sure everyone please note that theprestige hasn't bothered to respond to this post describing conditions in a detention center.

Perhaps his only interest in the thread is the language that we use?
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People drinking out of toilets sounds awful. We should put a stop to it.

What's the problem? Is it isolated to that one facility? Widespread? Institutional? An oversight? Does an administrator need to be fired? If so, which one? Did it actually happen the way it was reported?

Assuming it did actually happen as reported, what's the root cause? Simple mismanagement? Overloaded infrastructure? What's the correct remedy? Immediate allocation of funding to bring in as much bottled water as the detainees could possibly need? Does ICE already have that funding?

AOC is in Congress, which controls funding. Is that the remedy she's proposing? More funding for an overcrowded ICE detention system? *Is* she proposing a remedy? Is lack of funding even the problem she discovered?

Yahoo news reporting a politician's press conference doesn't leave us much to discuss. In the end, it's like Joe's intransigence on the matter of cages. All we can do is stipulate to her claims, and then what? We still don't know what's actually going on. We still don't have enough information to understand it or try to fix it.

At least, that's how it seems to me. What do you think? Do you believe AOC is telling you the truth, and is giving you a good, accurate picture of what's actually going on? Assuming she is, what do you think is the cause? What do you think should be done to fix it?
 
theprestige said:
People drinking out of toilets sounds awful. We should put a stop to it.

What's the problem? Is it isolated to that one facility? Widespread? Institutional? An oversight? Does an administrator need to be fired? If so, which one? Did it actually happen the way it was reported?

Assuming it did actually happen as reported, what's the root cause? Simple mismanagement? Overloaded infrastructure? What's the correct remedy? Immediate allocation of funding to bring in as much bottled water as the detainees could possibly need? Does ICE already have that funding?

AOC is in Congress, which controls funding. Is that the remedy she's proposing? More funding for an overcrowded ICE detention system? *Is* she proposing a remedy? Is lack of funding even the problem she discovered?

Yahoo news reporting a politician's press conference doesn't leave us much to discuss. In the end, it's like Joe's intransigence on the matter of cages. All we can do is stipulate to her claims, and then what? We still don't know what's actually going on. We still don't have enough information to understand it or try to fix it.

At least, that's how it seems to me. What do you think? Do you believe AOC is telling you the truth, and is giving you a good, accurate picture of what's actually going on? Assuming she is, what do you think is the cause? What do you think should be done to fix it?
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I think the cause is due to Trump firing up the hateful rhetoric against immigrants for a few years now. To fix it, I think we should get rid of Trump, to start.
 
theprestige said:
People drinking out of toilets sounds awful. We should put a stop to it.

What's the problem? I
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The problem is you have an institution of thugs that have been told they effectively have free reign to do what they want by the President of the United States and that he'll pardon the man if any of those pesky laws against being cruel & inhuman.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/12/politics/trump-cbp-commissioner-pardon/index.html

Add to that Trump's history of saying law enforcement should be cruel:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/politics/bs-md-trump-police-20170728-story.html

Tell an enforcement agency that they can do what they want with nothing to answer for and they will turn to cruelty. We've seen this again and again.

This is nothing new, reports of cruelty have been coming out for months.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/12/us-immigration-detention-facilities

In your reply you have waffling, half-hearted attempts to find other sources of the problem, and at least two of your paragraphs are about AOC rather than the man in charge: Trump.

Even worse, you try to put the burden on AOC to resolve the problem.

People are drinking out of toilets, and you want to play games to protect Trump.
 
theprestige said:
People drinking out of toilets sounds awful. We should put a stop to it.

What's the problem? Is it isolated to that one facility? Widespread? Institutional? An oversight? Does an administrator need to be fired? If so, which one? Did it actually happen the way it was reported?

Assuming it did actually happen as reported, what's the root cause? Simple mismanagement? Overloaded infrastructure? What's the correct remedy? Immediate allocation of funding to bring in as much bottled water as the detainees could possibly need? Does ICE already have that funding?

AOC is in Congress, which controls funding. Is that the remedy she's proposing? More funding for an overcrowded ICE detention system? *Is* she proposing a remedy? Is lack of funding even the problem she discovered?

Yahoo news reporting a politician's press conference doesn't leave us much to discuss. In the end, it's like Joe's intransigence on the matter of cages. All we can do is stipulate to her claims, and then what? We still don't know what's actually going on. We still don't have enough information to understand it or try to fix it.

At least, that's how it seems to me. What do you think? Do you believe AOC is telling you the truth, and is giving you a good, accurate picture of what's actually going on? Assuming she is, what do you think is the cause? What do you think should be done to fix it?
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Look at the way many police behave. It’s in your culture. America is ******.
 
My longer-form response:

On the whole "cages" dispute: I do understand questioning the meaning of the word. I have thought of schools as cages; children aren't free to go. But they have ample toilets, clean drinking water, room to move around and even entertainment. And they are at least nominally being educated; better than nominally most of the time.

Whether you think of mass migration , these people are supposed to be in the *care* of U.S. officials. When booked into jail you're given soap, a comb, toothbrush and toothpaste, a blanket, a bunk and menstrual supplies if needed. Toilet, toilet paper, access to showers, even rudimentary health care. Not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it's the practical thing to do when managing groups of detained people.

What makes it a crisis is the apparent lack of planning for taking care of detained people. Being in a holding-tank type situation is unpleasant for a few hours, but if it goes on for days, it becomes much worse.

The officers at these places do sound overwhelmed and IMO some of them are being dehumanized too in a sense. They get to leave at the end of their shifts but they're caught up in the same crisis. Probably not all of them are particularly cruel people.

Even after allowing for AOC hyperbole, these conditions are not acceptable.

And AOC is not in charge of funding. She's one member of one house of Congress.
 
theprestige said:
People drinking out of toilets sounds awful. We should put a stop to it.

What's the problem? Is it isolated to that one facility? Widespread? Institutional? An oversight? Does an administrator need to be fired? If so, which one? Did it actually happen the way it was reported?

Assuming it did actually happen as reported, what's the root cause? Simple mismanagement? Overloaded infrastructure? What's the correct remedy? Immediate allocation of funding to bring in as much bottled water as the detainees could possibly need? Does ICE already have that funding?

AOC is in Congress, which controls funding. Is that the remedy she's proposing? More funding for an overcrowded ICE detention system? *Is* she proposing a remedy? Is lack of funding even the problem she discovered?

Yahoo news reporting a politician's press conference doesn't leave us much to discuss. In the end, it's like Joe's intransigence on the matter of cages. All we can do is stipulate to her claims, and then what? We still don't know what's actually going on. We still don't have enough information to understand it or try to fix it.

At least, that's how it seems to me. What do you think? Do you believe AOC is telling you the truth, and is giving you a good, accurate picture of what's actually going on? Assuming she is, what do you think is the cause? What do you think should be done to fix it?
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By all means let's work this all out and get all these questions answered in intensely documented detail before we do anything at all. It shouldn't take more than a few months or more, and yes, many of these issues will devolve into intense political bickering that may make it impossible to reach consensus on many of these question, ever. And whose analysis will we all agree is the accurate one? AOC's or the Trump administration's? The Atlantic reporters or the Fox reporters? If a Congressional team, Democrat-dominated House or Republican-dominated Senate? But no hurry, right?

Or, in my naivety, I suggest that instead we first and immediately ensure that the kids are in not just acceptable physical and emotional settings, but settings/conditions so impressive that we can be proud of them. This fix should make us all better able to sleep starting this week! And this fix does not first require a detailed investigation of who is to blame or the root cause. Bring in social and medical workers to do the evaluations and suggest the fixes; many do this as their jobs in evaluating stressed families, adoptions, schools, etc; the unbiased skills and knowledge are already there. Or just ask oneself the question: "How would I feel if my own child were housed there? What would I want the facilities to be?" After that minimum, excellent facilities, then rapidly work on reuniting the kids with their parents (at least those we haven't already lost!?!). My god, stop using kids to blackmail their parents!

The questions you ask are fine... for later. To help make certain this will not happen again. But ensure the physical and emotional health and safety of the kids first. Now!. Immediately.

Enough: I've posted all this before and I hate to repeat myself.
 
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I'm not saying AOC is in charge of funding. I'm saying that her role in this is pretty well defined, and the levers available to her for changing policy are well understood.

It'll be interesting to see how she continues to work on this issue during her tenure in the legislature.
 
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