I agree. Zionism was a political vision that was fullfilled with the establishment of Israel 50 years ago.
It was specifically a
nationalist vision, which was not completed in 1949 simply by the establishment of some territorial control. The nation had been planned, rationally by secular thinkers, and that plan was not fulfilled by the 1949 borders. Zionism did not go away the moment Israel was created, any more than Greek nationalism went away the moment Greece became a nation-state.
We can move this part of the discussion to the old thread about Nationalism if you wish but you will have difficulties in proving your claims with political arguments. Mind you! I am not talking of evidence the way Claus understands the term,this is a political discussion,afterall. The only evidence you will be able to find demonstrates that there is a group of people who talks about Judea and Samaria indeed but even them have refined their rhetorics and talk about the need for Israel's security. In every european society I know,there various types of political groups that lobby for various causes. In Greece we have a group that lobbies for the return of Instabul to the Greeks. Usually,we spot the extremes in order to define what really happens in a society. You chose the extremes in order to drag conclusions about a new country like Israel.
The extremists you mention do not restrict their arguments to security, they refer to the Land of Israel as granted to them by their god and the incorporation of it
all in Israel as a religious duty. You must have noticed that during the last year or so, culminating in what went on in Gaza. These extremists are regarded as numerous enough to be courted by Likud, if not by Sharon. Many of them are living in the West Bank, a no-man's-land - not Jordanian, not Israeli, not Palestinian, a place outside the accepted international order. They are armed, and they feel enjoined by their god to breed as prolifically as possible. They get ministerial positions so that Sharon can get the Knesset votes he needs. This is more like EOKA than whatever movement wants Byzantium back (presumably the same movement that invaded Asia Minor in the 1920's, I'm not surprised they're still around, I've been known to advocate the dismemberment of Turkey myself). Yes, there are still French monarchists and Welsh nationalists, but these movements are not comparable.
This appears as a terrible insult but maybe I am reading it the wrong way. What do you mean?
It's certainly not meant to be complimentary. The so-called "ultra-orthodox" are ultra, but they aren't orthodox. Theirs is a religion of real-estate and dynasties, last seen with the Maccabees and zealots and a short-lived aberration then, disastrous for the region. They treat the Torah as a spell-book. This is not Judaism as I know it
You seem to forget that IDF is the Army of people of Israel. Israelis are the Army while in the same time there are many other things.
Britain has an army but I've never heard the slogan "Britain is the Army, the Army is Britain". The IDF has always made a point of being a nation-in-arms, which ordinary nations reserve for times of crisis. It's always been something of a fiction, but it's becoming more so. The First Intifada wore down national morale because so many ordinary (dare I saw normal?) citizens experienced it and felt like an occupying army in a foreign country. That has prompted the increasing professionalism of the IDF. Professional soldiers have much less difficulty with being occupiers. It's one of the things that soldiers do - particularly the successful ones.
Normal Israelis ( funny you use this term,Capel Dodger,it shows the magnitude of your prejudice since in order to rationalize it you use terms you wouldn't in any other discussion)
I've used the term "normal Israelis" plenty of times as meaning urban, non-weird, unobsessed Israelis in Israel. Or, increasingly, in London, New York or Paris.
If we follow your logic I don't worry about the Russians who are used in obedience. From the Chzar to Stalin they are used not be asked about what they think.
Racial sterotyping or what? If they're not going to think for themselves, presumably they'll do what their politicians tell them and vote accordingly. There are at least three political parties representing Russians, at least one of them the non-Jewish Russians. And in general, the Russians are not what I would describe as "normal Israelis", they have different interests, such as higher minimum-wage. That's a lot of votes and a lot of seats, and we both know how that gains leverage under the Israeli system.
There's an election coming, which should give us more information.
I'd say that Israel is noted for not hesitating to pay the cost for its existence and security but I agree that mentality is the problem.
The cost of maintaining a colony in hostile territory is high.
And yet it didn't happen.
The
betrayal happened. That's what will fester. What's more, leaving it all to the god and Israel didn't stop the evacuation happening. That surely must mean that the god
wants them to stop any further retreats themselves?
Maybe you don't know that the teenage audience has nothing in common with the teenage audience of the occupied territories and refugee camps. From his/her early years an israeli is brought up learning that life,property and the country shouldn't be taken for granted, also, israeli kids are raised to learn the tale of David and Goliath. Strength isn't enough to win,you need to have brains as well and believe me, if there is one state dogma in Israel this is the endless cultivation of the brains of the population.I know that it's difficult for a western capitalist to understand that but for an israeli there is only one obsessive thought; how he will succeed and how will he be allowed to live with his own people undisturbed.
Is the Sampson and Delilah story still told? That one always irritated me. Sampson was such a bonehead. Gideon was my man. As a born geek, I've always favoured brains over brawn. (David didn't do for Goliath, but his guys soun it that way, which taught me an early lesson in politics.)
Brains is good, foreign subsidy is good, high taxes and extensive government intervention is good in principle. Education is good, especially if there's plenty of crtical-thinking and history in there. Real history, not history as a tool of state. An Israeli "living with his own people undisturbed" is not possible while occupation and expansion continue. It can only be achieved when Israelis regard "their own people" as everybody that lives there.
The teenagers and children who were evicted from Gaza aren't being integrated into "normal" society, and their situation is going to be comparable with the Palestinian refugee camps of 50 years ago. They will be traumatised, they will be incitable, and there will be incitement. Mark my words. (As if you ever would.)
