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The Trump Presidency 14

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: rolleyes :
Aw yeah rolleyes! Let's do this!

The main reason that either of those is or was even in question is Trump and his Administration's moves to stir up trouble with them.
Both of those nations have a longstanding policy of stirring up trouble all day every day. For decades, US presidents have had to walk a fine line between pressuring them to knock it off, and avoiding costly escalation even in a good cause. I think Obama's nuke deal with Iran swung a little too far towards avoiding escalation. Trump's withdrawal corrects that oversteer. Iran's had a little tanty over it, but it looks like it's not going to escalate any further right now. Trump and his administration have had more than enough excuses to keep escalating, over the past few weeks. They haven't. Your guess about their intentions is contradicted by events.

To what end, exactly? Trump's trying to use tariffs to demand that China... change its overall form of government, pretty much. If it was about limiting China's influence, that's pretty much what the TPP was intended for.
Even Clinton didn't like the TPP.

Congratulations, you've earned a good, hard slap for that comment and the dishonesty and irresponsibility that pervades it.
Ah yes. A personal attack combined with a violent fantasy. Tell me more.

If only. Why would he be at all motivated to do that, though, when Trump's been employing lots of them? Similarly, Republicans employ a distinctly disproportionate number of the illegal immigrants, which has meant that it's Republican representatives that have likely done the most to sabotage enforcement in general, even while frequently employing rhetoric to cow the illegals and people who can be "mistaken" as illegals. Going further, Republicans use it as a major issue to rile up their base and don't want to lose the issue. I could likely go on, but... that's enough for now. In short, I really, really don't trust Republicans on that issue because of both their actual actions and the presence of a number of reasons to discourage actual action being taken to move things in a good direction.
No argument from me there. I agree we can't trust Republican lawmakers to take serious action about illegal employers. Nor is Trump likely to do so. This is the kind of damage I see Trump doing so far, and the kind of damage I see him likely to continue doing for another six years. If we re-elect Trump, we're going to continue to have serious border problems, due in part to a failure to crack down on illegal employers.

If one of the Democratic candidates for president seems serious about cracking down on illegal employers, I will seriously consider voting for them. Do any of them come to your mind, in this capacity?

: rolleyes :
Aw yeah more rolleyes!

Tell me more.

Perhaps. If only the concerns were limited to irrational or minor concerns, it would be wonderful. Sadly, that's not even remotely the case.
Actually, I think that being obsessed with irrational or minor concerns is the worse scenario. Having real, serious concerns and taking them seriously is actually the reasonable and responsible scenario. But it's called a derangement syndrome for a reason.

Your deployment of the rolleyes suggests that you think the decision not to support transgenders in the military is a minor concern. Is this actually something we agree on? Six more years of this policy aren't a major problem?

Which would be all the more reason to get them or better back into place and let them move the needle. The situation is... already quite bad because of all the procrastination, delays, and long-term deliberate misinformation and disinformation that's been spread by the industries that would directly suffer financially from action being taken to address the situation... misinformation and disinformation that's been embraced by GOP politicians and propagandists, unfortunately. The damage will only continue to rise ever more quickly the longer things get delayed.

Oh, right, and AOC was citing a UN report.
How many degrees of global temperature would those policies have reduced over the next twelve years, if left in place?

Care to back this up?
Enh. It's mild hyperbole. Feel free to form your own impressions about the effect of developing nations on global climate change, and how much they'd need to dial back their own industrial activity, in order for US policy to have a noticeable effect. In the next twelve years.

A lot, by the look of it?
Like what. What else can you think of, that wouldn't be tolerable for another six years, if it comes to that?
 
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Not a tu quoque. The proper response to special pleading is to point out that it's not actually special.

I simply refuse to judge Trump in a vacuum, free of context and without reference to his predecessors and contemporaries.

That means you'll never move forward because you're always allowing things that happened in the past rationalize the things that happen in the current. The point of civilization is to move forward, not stay stagnant.

He is special, we've pointed this out. He's lied more than anyone in office. There isn't a senator, pres, or house critter that has shown to have lied as much as him. He lies about anything and everything.

I get this is Trump supporters new schtick. You literally have to go back in time to find someone that sucks as bad as he does, but it's already tired. He's demonstrably worse based on several criteria. He's taken more vacation days, he's made more money off of the taxpayers, he has the most unfilled positions, he has the most dysfunctional government, and he's easily the first one (correction: in the modern era) to consider nationalists as fine people.

So again, you can keep saying this but it's ******* ********. There's no truth in it and the only person you're fooling is yourself.
 
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Before Trump: No war with North Korea - for many decades.

After Trump: No war with North Korea - for 2 years and counting.

I believe in giving credit where credit is due - even for Trump. But bragging about just extending the status quo of “no war with North Korea” is pretty weak sauce.

That's your complaint? Trump is continuing the status quo established by his predecessors? What is he supposed to do with North Korea? Change their regime? Re-unify them peacefully with their brethren?

A lot of people seem to think Trump is a crazy warmonger looking for a fight and unable to responsibly avoid one. And yet for the past two years - already more than half his term! - he's kept the nation squarely on course to maintain the status quo of peace with North Korea. How much longer does he have to keep it up, before people will join you in considering that this is what he's actually doing?

Not even South Korea has much luck getting a friendly response from North Korea. Remember the Sunshine Policy?
 
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And transgenders can probably get by for another six years without accommodations from the military. It's a voluntary service, after all, not a human right. Certainly the nation doesn't face an existential threat so grave that the lack of transgender soldiers is going to make us less safe.
Human right or no, the country provides equal protection under the laws for all citizens. Before you mention unit cohesion and effectiveness, remember they said similar things about blacks and women in the service.

And if you don't care about the civil and legal rights of others, you know the old line about "Then, they came for me. . . ."
 
Maybe. But I’ll bet a lot of folks in Russia, Germany, Cuba and Venezuela said the same thing as their governments gradually (or not so gradually) morphed from one type to another.

But to say “It’s different here” is to ignore both history and human nature. I hope you’re right, and I’m hopeful - but a lot less hopeful than I was 2 years ago.

What's happened in the last two years to make you less hopeful?

Russia, Germany, and Cuba went through a lot of drastic changes, in the two year period starting when reasonable people were first saying, "we can survive this no problem." Hitler became Chancellor of Germany in 1933. By 1934, Germany had seen the Reichstag fire and the Enabling Act. That same year, Hitler banned the main opposition party and seized all its assets. He also dissolved all trade unions and imprisoned their leaders. Also in 1934, he assassinated some of the other major figures in his own party. Two years in, Germans had a lot of reasons to reconsider their previous calm.

In 2016, before Trump was elected, I was saying the nation's institutions of government were strong enough to handle a Trump presidency. Two years later, I haven't seen anything that would suggest otherwise. Certainly nothing that merits a parallel with Germany 1933-1935.

For those who were worried in 2016 that Donald Trump would destroy the country if elected, the past two years should come as a huge relief. By this point in Hitler's administration, Germany as it had been was pretty much over.
 
The problem is, Trump and the rest of the republicans have been undermining the whole 'division of power' thing... Stacking the courts with right wing judges, which of course means that future rulings from the Supreme court are more likely to benefit the right wing, which gives them even more power.

This raises an interesting question about what kind of judges Hillary Clinton would have stacked the courts with, had she been elected and had a Democratic Senate to confirm them.

Wait.

No it doesn't. That's actually a really boring question.
 
... A recurring theme in discussions here about Trump is how especially evil he is. My argument is one of comparison, to his predecessors and contemporaries, to see if his evil really is all that special. If he really is so much worse than any other president ever. What I find, when I do the comparisons, is that the claims of Trump's special badness are overblown. ....
Another recurring theme are posters who don't recognize or consider the complete disrespect for the rule of law, the gutting of multiple important departments like the FBI, rampant corruption, dishonesty on steroids and any number of other significant actions of this POTUS.
 
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Human right or no, the country provides equal protection under the laws for all citizens. Before you mention unit cohesion and effectiveness, remember they said similar things about blacks and women in the service.
Of course similar things were said about blacks and women in the service. Because they were true. Some of this could be overcome. Blacks faced a social stigma that faded with time. Women in the service also face a social stigma, which is also fading. But women also have biological differences that absolutely affect unit effectiveness and thus unit cohesion. Those biological differences aren't ever going away.

Transgenders face both a social stigma and biological differences, neither of which can be easily accommodated.

And if you don't care about the civil and legal rights of others, you know the old line about "Then, they came for me. . . ."
I do care about these things. However, it's not clear to me that this creates an obligation in the armed forces to accommodate transgenders. More importantly, while I do acknowledge that the current policy is a problem, I also think that solving it will be problematic as well, and that on balance it's okay if trying to get it solved is deferred for a few more years.
 
The only thing "special" is the methodology behind this claim.

The **** does that mean? Pretty sure the methodology of "not telling the truth" has been the same since the words had a clear definition.

Are you denying that what I said is the truth? Wow. I know I'd be embarrassed.
 
Not a tu quoque. The proper response to special pleading is to point out that it's not actually special.

I simply refuse to judge Trump in a vacuum, free of context and without reference to his predecessors and contemporaries.

Dude, it wasn't even relevant to what Norman Alexander was saying. It was nothing but tu quoque. Clearly you don't even know what "special pleading" even means; it's just a BS defense you whip out over and over again because you have nothing better to contribute.

Disagree? Point out the precise manner in which that post you were responding to was Special Pleading: Argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view.

This oughta be fun!
 
Of course similar things were said about blacks and women in the service. Because they were true. Some of this could be overcome. Blacks faced a social stigma that faded with time. Women in the service also face a social stigma, which is also fading. But women also have biological differences that absolutely affect unit effectiveness and thus unit cohesion. Those biological differences aren't ever going away.

Transgenders face both a social stigma and biological differences, neither of which can be easily accommodated.

Womens' biological differences only affect unit effectiveness if they are given duties that they cannot perform. The larger question is whether women should be prohibited from serving in the armed forces altogether.

One could form a coherent policy that said that anyone - man, woman, trans, black, white, whatever - can serve in the armed forces, but only be assigned to duties for which they are capable of fulfilling to some defined standard.

I do care about these things. However, it's not clear to me that this creates an obligation in the armed forces to accommodate transgenders.
Equal protection under law does require trans folk to be able to serve in the military. What part of that is not clear?

And, why would we want to prohibit the benefits we can receive from *anyone* who wants to serve and is able to. You never know who might make a great contribution, it could be a man, a woman, a trans, a black, a white, etc. etc. etc.
 
Of course similar things were said about blacks and women in the service. Because they were true. Some of this could be overcome. Blacks faced a social stigma...
Yup, and them being allowed to serve was one of the things that helped alleviate this.
 
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