Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[GlennB]

Except that none of it is. She was tested extensively during 1988 even though it was not mandatory. She retired to have a child. IIRC some teammate sold a splash to the press about her and also Carl Lewis taking hormones but also had no evidence and struck out.


Need a far higher standard of evidence than "suspicion". As you do for biological gender which is why rules are not enforced against Caster Semenya just because "she looks like a bloke" or "she's too quick"

"After her death in 1998, Prince Alexandre de Merode, the Chairman of the International Olympic Committee's medical commission, claimed that Joyner was singled out for extra, rigorous drug testing during the 1988 Olympic Games because of rumors of steroid use.
...
De Merode was not without controversy himself, having been accused of covering up drug tests at the 1984 Games, and following record shattering performances by Chinese swimmers in the 1990s"

My bolding. Mandatory random testing was introduced in 1989. All FloJo had to do was dope up in late 87 and early 88, but tail off before major competitions. However, see the Carl Lewis article below.

Of Carl Lewis:

"Carl Lewis has broken his silence on allegations that he was the beneficiary of a drugs cover-up, admitting he had tested positive for banned substances but claiming he was just one of "hundreds" of American athletes who were allowed to escape bans.

"There were hundreds of people getting off," he said. "Everyone was treated the same."

Lewis has now acknowledged that he failed three tests during the 1988 US Olympic trials, which under international rules at the time should have prevented him from competing in the Seoul games two months later."

Drug abuse was rampant then, and systematically covered-up in the US.

 

[Francesca R]

And yet there is no evidence that Flo-Jo doped herself. You can believe it if you want of course.

 

[GlennB]

And yet there is no evidence that Flo-Jo doped herself. You can believe it if you want of course.

The 'herself' there makes the sentence ambiguous. There's strong circumstantial evidence that she benefited from doping, though she might conceivably have been unaware that she was taking the stuff.

 

[caveman1917]

You've got that back to front

Nope, you do. If your name is a gender identity then, for example, Bradley Manning having a "male" name would imply he has a male gender identity. Yet he changed his name to Chelsea claiming to have a female gender identity instead, therefor his name - Bradley - was not a gender identity he had.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

And yet there is no evidence that Flo-Jo doped herself. You can believe it if you want of course.

"No evidence"? If you mean; she was never caught by way of testing - suuure.

(If you mean to say, she might have been doped without knowing it, well ....)

FGJ was fast but in no way exceptional at college and into her mid-twenties. She retired, made a "come-back" at age twenty-eight - and tainted women's sprinting forever with her blatant steroid use. Her 100 and 200 records will never be touched by a 'clean' athlete.

The damage inflicted on her body, which was absolutely typical of steroid abuse, made itself known by killing her at thirty-eight years old.

 

[Darat]

Nope, you do. If your name is a gender identity then, for example, Bradley Manning having a "male" name would imply he has a male gender identity. Yet he changed his name to Chelsea claiming to have a female gender identity instead, therefor his name - Bradley - was not a gender identity he had.

Nope Darat has no gender identity at least in my culture. And nope you've still got it the wrong way around.

 

[GlennB]

"No evidence"? If you mean; she was never caught by way of testing - suuure.

(If you mean to say, she might have been doped without knowing it, well ....)

FGJ was fast but in no way exceptional at college and into her mid-twenties. She retired, made a "come-back" at age twenty-eight - and tainted women's sprinting forever with her blatant steroid use. Her 100 and 200 records will never be touched by a 'clean' athlete.

The damage inflicted on her body, which was absolutely typical of steroid abuse, made itself known by killing her at thirty-eight years old.

"It would be three years before I would get as close to her again, in Seoul 1988, by which time she had metamorphosed. Apart from the overall muscular definition and diminution of breasts, her jaw had elongated, a condition called acromegaly, known to be an effect of Human Growth Hormone.

She wore thick pan-stick make-up, to cover the widespread acne, a side- effect of male hormones, and her voice had deepened substantially."

Pat Butcher, sports journalist

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm pretty sure that this isn't what people identifying themselves as transgender are talking about when they refer to their "gender identity", which is something inside them, not their label.

Then you haven't noticed how upset they get when you "deadname" them. They care very, very much about their label.

 

[Rolfe]

This is the part of the thread where I ask for at least one example of an 46,XX male, SRY-negative athlete playing elite women's sport.

1. The condition is extremely rare - which doesn't actually mean a lot because in sports the people with unique advantages rise to the top
2. As far as I know, they are phenotypically male and brought up as boys, which would tend to preclude them getting into women's athletics
3. Of course, now that phenotypically male people are allowed to self-ID as female and compete in women's sports, this is interesting because if one of these people did that, as an XX person he would not be required to lower his testosterone
4. Watch this space, possibly.

 

[Rolfe]

"It would be three years before I would get as close to her again, in Seoul 1988, by which time she had metamorphosed. Apart from the overall muscular definition and diminution of breasts, her jaw had elongated, a condition called acromegaly, known to be an effect of Human Growth Hormone.

She wore thick pan-stick make-up, to cover the widespread acne, a side- effect of male hormones, and her voice had deepened substantially."

Pat Butcher, sports journalist

I think we've certainly established that the allegation has been made, from multiple sources. I think we've also established that there is credible evidence to support it. Now this isn't a court of law where we're obliged to rule according to "beyond reasonable doubt". Reasonable people may form their own opinions on how the balance of probabilities lies, and indeed may differ in their assessments, but there's no point claiming that "it was never proved", because we don't need that to make up our own minds.

 

[The Atheist]

A bit tongue in cheek but actually your user name is expressing a gender identity, using a name that in our culture is identified as a female name.

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Boy_Named_Sue

... as far as my knowledge goes there has never been any evidence she (Flo-Jo) doped herself..

Only if you don't accept the evidence, which Glen nicely noted.

That is solid evidence. People do not undergo that kind of improvement naturally, and history has shown that when they do, it's by illegal means.

Oh golly gee, FloJo was tested so many times...

So was Lance Armstrong.

(Nice gender defence, even though you'd never admit it.)

... Caster Semenya just because "she looks like a bloke" or "she's too quick"

Which has turned out to be entirely correct. Imagine that.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

"It would be three years before I would get as close to her again, in Seoul 1988, by which time she had metamorphosed. Apart from the overall muscular definition and diminution of breasts, her jaw had elongated, a condition called acromegaly, known to be an effect of Human Growth Hormone.

She wore thick pan-stick make-up, to cover the widespread acne, a side- effect of male hormones, and her voice had deepened substantially."

Pat Butcher, sports journalist

There's still a lot of willful denial about her, and if you search for "peak age sprinters" there's almost a stock answer which says "some at thirty years", which is purely to take account of FGJ and one or two others. It's BS - sprinters peak in their mid-twenties, always. Other sports in which explosive speed confers an advantage, such as tennis, players can compensate for its diminution with learned skills and technique, sprinters just get slower, full stop.

 

[Rolfe]

I know we'd stopped talking about autogynaephilia, but this came up on twitter this evening. I realise this thread has stopped trying to pretend that autogynaephilia isn't a thing, or that a proportion of trans-identifying males are not autogynaephiles, but this is such a blatant example that it's really worth a link.

Context. Graham Linehan repeated the common misconception that women's resistance to males in female single-sex spaces isn't about "actual transwomen", but about the fear that predatory men will spot their chance and pretend to be trans to gain access to vulnerable women. Several people jumped in to clarify. One person posted these quotes, though without an actual citation.

https://twitter.com/sceptica_bex/status/1142542755916374016

You see, now that we know that this, or something very much like it, is the motivation for trans-identifying men to gain access to women's spaces, and that this, or something very much like it, is what's going on in their heads, we are creeped out big-time. We now understand the exhibitionism, and the refusal to contemplate the offer of a third private space to change if they're really feeling threatened in the male facilities. Validation, yes, but also fetish gratification. We simply are not going to give in to having these men foisted on us, no matter how much they bleat about being the most marginalised mortals since the dawn of creation or how "hurtful" it is to be excluded.

I found another piece giving references and chapter and verse for all the studies that have confirmed Blanchard's work over the years (in rather testy tones), and it's not where I thought I'd saved it. I'll post it if and when I find it again.

Just stop it. These guys can not "pee next to me" if I have anything to do with it.

 

[Francesca R]

Those quotes if they are real are those of a predatory male.

What else would they be? Not all "actual transwomen" are the same but some of them are predatory males.

(Not Rebecca Watson is it?) (ETA No)

 

[Rolfe]

And on the issue of child abuse. This thread is a series of screen captures from a forum where detransitioners discuss their predicament. The young man, now in his 30s, says that he was one of the first "trans kids" to be transitioned as an adolescent. He now believes his parents did it because they didn't like having an effeminate son, and there is also a strong hint that they benefited financially from the situation. (This is not Jazz Jennings because he's still only about 17, or Jackie Green because he's about 25, and both of them are still saying they're on board with what's happened to them, but it's likely to be a child in a similar situation.)

https://twitter.com/ZaneEmma/status/1142263301386190848

Obviously this has nothing to do with autogynaephilia, this is HSTS. However studies show that if these children are supported simply to be themselves through puberty and into their 20s, 70% to 95% of them (depending on the study) will give up the idea of transitioning and become gay men perfectly happy with their own bodies (or as much as any of us are). This rush to push young people into hormones and surgery (I saw an account from a proud mother earlier today of how she had procured her "son" a bilateral mastectomy at the age of 12!), and the literal criminalisation of a counselling and "wait and see" approach is ruining lives.

 

[Rolfe]

Those quotes if they are real are those of a predatory male.

What else would they be? Not all "actual transwomen" are the same but some of them are predatory males.

(Not Rebecca Watson is it?) (ETA No)

I don't know who it is. I don't see any reason to doubt the authenticity of the screen captures though. I've read too many similar ones. Including Jonathan Yaniv.

It may very well be that most of these guys will hold back from actually assaulting anyone and simply get their rocks off by being in women's spaces, watching women's discomfort with their presence, and revelling in the whole charade. It's already been ruled (in the USA I believe) that girls have no right to visual privacy and so long as the man in their locker room doesn't actually touch them he can do what he likes and they have no comeback. Somehow it's not "exposing himself" or flashing if he says he's trans.

But you know what? I don't care. It's "not all transwomen" for sure, but it's a non-trivial proportion of them, and I am sick and tired of being lectured by clueless wokebeards that I should be kind and budge over for them, or worse still I have no right to privacy and not wanting that changing next to me is as bad as racism. I know the author of this blog post in real life. I tell you straight, if I ever see him in the ladies room when I'm there, I will run a mile.

How the freaking hell did we even get into this situation?

 

[Francesca R]

It may very well be that most of these guys will hold back from actually assaulting anyone and simply get their rocks off by being in women's spaces, watching women's discomfort with their presence, and revelling in the whole charade.

That's predatory behaviour and a reason why there are sex segregated private spaces, even if one can't enforce against it if say someone is getting this autogynaephilic experience in the street.

It isn't easy to tell if a male who identifies as female is actually a predator or not. But those who are, are not likely to be interested in a third space. (Those who aren't may not be either)

 

[Rolfe]

None of them seem to be, which should tell you quite a lot. The ostensible reason is that it discriminates against them by marking them out as "not real women" and that may indeed be the primary reason for some if not many, but the rush of autigynaephilic arousal is sought by a significant proportion.

[Rolfe goes to bed and waits for the flurry of "terf!", "bigot!", "exactly like a racist" posts, and doesn't care one tiny bit.]

 

[qayak]

"No evidence"? If you mean; she was never caught by way of testing - suuure.

(If you mean to say, she might have been doped without knowing it, well ....)

FGJ was fast but in no way exceptional at college and into her mid-twenties. She retired, made a "come-back" at age twenty-eight - and tainted women's sprinting forever with her blatant steroid use. Her 100 and 200 records will never be touched by a 'clean' athlete.

The damage inflicted on her body, which was absolutely typical of steroid abuse, made itself known by killing her at thirty-eight years old.

19 U.S. Olympic track athletes failed drug tests during the 1988 Olympic trials. All of them were allowed to compete. 3 of them won gold medals.

 

[qayak]

Except that none of it is. She was tested extensively during 1988 even though it was not mandatory. She retired to have a child. IIRC some teammate sold a splash to the press about her and also Carl Lewis taking hormones but also had no evidence and struck out.


Need a far higher standard of evidence than "suspicion". As you do for biological gender which is why rules are not enforced against Caster Semenya just because "she looks like a bloke" or "she's too quick"

Carl Lewis admitted he used PEDs to win. He also failed 3 drug tests during the 1988 Olympic trials and should have been banned for at least 3 months which would have stopped him from competing. The USOC swept it under the rug.