The Trump Presidency 14

[JoeMorgue]

Part of the problem is that people who are attracted to power... seek out positions of power. The fact that here in American the greedy and ruthless people are in business while in this other country the greedy and ruthless people are in government while in this other country the greedy and ruthless people are in religion while in this other country.... and so forth and so forth is, in part, simply a statement on where power resides in those particular countries.

If we could magically snap our fingers and get rid of "Corrupt Big Business" those greedy and ruthless people who run them wouldn't magically disappear, they would just seek out whatever the positions of power where in that new society. In 21 Century America Bernie Madoff was a business man. In 1980s Soviet he'd be a Party Insider. In 1400th century Italy he'd be a Medici. If you dropped him on an island with 10 people he'd be the one holding the conch.

None of this is to say that all positions of power are equal, that none have their advantages or disadvantages or anything of that nature but every society has some positions of power of some kind that these people will gravitate to and use to their advantage at everyone else's expense.

 

[Checkmite]

Yeah, load up those cruise missiles, wild weasel missions and lg bombs away.

No, actually. In his press statements he again calls it a "mistake" but uses it in a way which implies "accident":

When asked early afternoon whether the U.S. would strike back during an Oval Office meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Trump said: "You'll soon find out."

But at the same time, he said, "I find it hard to believe it was intentional if you want to know the truth."

"It could have been somebody who was loose and stupid that did it," he said.

"I would imagine it was a general or somebody who made a mistake in shooting the drone down," Trump said. "Fortunately, that drone was unarmed. It was not -- there was no man in it, it was in international waters but we didn't have a man or woman in the drone, we had nobody in the drone. Would have made a big, big difference."

"I have a feeling -- and I may be wrong and I may be right but I'm right a lot -- that it was a mistake made by somebody that shouldn't have been doing what they do," he said. "I think they made a mistake and I'm not just talking about the country made a mistake somebody under the command of the country made a mistake."

Yeah, Iran sure is lucky it was an UNMANNED drone. If it had been a manned one they'd be in big trouble.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump always talks big but craps out.

 

[jeremyp]

If the Democrats try to court the "white racist" demographic they will
If you want an example of what not to do, look at the UK Labour Party with respect to Brexit. They adopt a pro-Brexit stance to try to attract a right-wing demographic who wouldn't vote Labour if their lives depended on it and in so doing they drive their Remain supporting voters into the arms of the Greens and LibDems who are both pro-Remain.

This analysis is fundamentally wrong. The idea that Bexit correlates with being right wing is false. There are Brexiteers across the political spectrum. In fact, poorer and more traditionally Labour areas often voted more in favour of Brexit than richer areas. Labour really adopted a pro-Brexit stance because the current leader has always been a Euro-sceptic.

IMO what the Democratic Party needs to do is to make the "white racist" demographic electorally unimportant.

How can you do that? Each white racist has exactly the same number of votes as each Black non-racist. If white racists are electorally important, you can only rectify that by decreasing the number of them who vote or increasing the number of non racists who vote.

The paradox of parties of the Left is that the traditional demographic of their base - white working class men - is actually a fairly conservative group in many ways. There's no reason to suppose that your average working man being exploited by the capitalist system is any less likely to be a racist, homophobe or sexist than the people exploiting him.

 

[The Don]

Trump always talks big but craps out.

Shout loudly and wave your small dunda..(for those familiar with Goodness Gracious Me)

 

[JoeMorgue]

No BREXIT and Trump stem (largely I doubt I have to point out neither of them have a single "cause") from the same thing; socially disenfranchise people who are still politically viable.

"I won't dirty myself to talk to racist" and "I won't dirty myself to talk to xenophobes" is all fine and dandy... in a world where those racists and xenophobes can't then go vote.

 

[The Don]

This analysis is fundamentally wrong. The idea that Bexit correlates with being right wing is false. There are Brexiteers across the political spectrum. In fact, poorer and more traditionally Labour areas often voted more in favour of Brexit than richer areas. Labour really adopted a pro-Brexit stance because the current leader has always been a Euro-sceptic.

Yes there is minority support for Brexit on the left but the vast majority of Brexit voters were right wing, it is supported and funded by right wingers and the leaders are right wing.

How can you do that? Each white racist has exactly the same number of votes as each Black non-racist. If white racists are electorally important, you can only rectify that by decreasing the number of them who vote or increasing the number of non racists who vote.

Exactly and if you'd understood my post I was advocating the latter

The paradox of parties of the Left is that the traditional demographic of their base - white working class men - is actually a fairly conservative group in many ways. There's no reason to suppose that your average working man being exploited by the capitalist system is any less likely to be a racist, homophobe or sexist than the people exploiting him.

In the US, the white working class male vote, especially the religious white working class male vote is a lock for the GOP (and it's a shrinking demographic) which is why I'm advocating that the Democratic Party shouldn't even try to pander to it and instead focus on other, growing, demographics more in line with its core values.

 

[BobTheCoward]

No BREXIT and Trump stem (largely I doubt I have to point out neither of them have a single "cause") from the same thing; socially disenfranchise people who are still politically viable.

"I won't dirty myself to talk to racist" and "I won't dirty myself to talk to xenophobes" is all fine and dandy... in a world where those racists and xenophobes can't then go vote.

Maybe not dirtying oneself is better than winning elections. Better to endure/die [condition X] than live [condition Y].

 

[Elagabalus]

... If you dropped him on an island with 10 people he'd be the one holding the conch...

Not after he fell off the cliff in that terrible accident.

 

[The Atheist]

How does that sound? Also we will give you the title of prince”
and (B) the president fall for it?

Outside of the prince bit, I'd say it's more likely than possible.

Trump just had a meeting with Justin Trudeau at the White House.
Justin coughed. Do you think he did it deliberately?

Any leader wanting to troll Trump properly wouldn't just cough. Lean in his ear after shaking hands and say "Sorry if I seem a bit off-colour, I've got norovirus/leprosy/AIDS...."

 

[Steve]

Trump just had a meeting with Justin Trudeau at the White House.
Justin coughed. Do you think he did it deliberately?

I suspect it was deliberate. We will never know for sure.

 

[dudalb]

Or the the centre ground of the GOP as they are now known.

IMO the GOP has shifted so far to the right and has sold its soul to both religious and political fundamentalists that any centreist politician (by current global, or historical US standards) would be viewed as a dangerously radical leftist.

Trtue, but what is scary is that to some on the hard left of the Democratic Party view centrists as evil reactionaries. Just listen to some of rhetoric about centrists.
I am afraid that the Dems have managed to grow their own Bizarro version of the Tea Party.

 

[dudalb]

Trump always talks big but craps out.

So far,yes. But sooner or later the temptation to prove how big and strong and manly he is by pulling the trigger will overcome him.

 

[dudalb]

Ok I completely disagree with this. Problem is this is exactly the approach that Democrats have taken for decades now and the only thing it's netted us is neutered, center-right, war mongering corporatist shills that serve the same corporate interest that Republicans do. Just to a slightly lesser degree.


This style of moderation is exactly why we lost the public option in the ACA, why mainstream Democrats supported civil unions before they "evolved" into fully supporting gay marriage and why the best candidates the Democratic establishment could whip up is shill supreme Hilary Clinton and Joe Biden. And we all know as centrist as he was, Obama's attempts to reach across the aisle just resulted in him spinning his wheels. Moderation doesn't work in our current political environment.


The gravitational pull from the Republicans far-right conservatism is so strong that our moderates/centrist are center right. I'm all for the Democrats ACTUALLY moving to the left and becoming LESS compromising and spineless. Assuming some degree of progressive beliefs and policies will become mainstream the Republican party would be pulled closer to the center. This would in time help moderate the Republican party.

Yeah, more extremism is just what we need in this country.

 

[Solitaire]

I'd agree with that. This country has divided into extremes and neither will work
alone. What we need is moderation...a centrist who can give something to both
sides. Extremists from either side will NOT work with others. Compromise,
people, compromise.

You need a Huntsman.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Trump just had a meeting with Justin Trudeau at the White House.
Justin coughed. Do you think he did it deliberately?

Yes

 

[a_unique_person]

Bernie will lose. A lot of voters will just stay home if it comes between Bernie and Donald.

I think that some "Progressives" are living in as much of a fantasy land as the Trump supporters.

It is no longer a matter of are you good enough to be President. I would love to see some better than Bernie running. The days of a good candidate being elected are gone now. All you need is the right vibe. Look at Boris in the UK.

 

[Stacyhs]

>snip<

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
It can happen. The Alex Jones crowd is hopeless but the GOP in Congress may be willing to be more sensible

McConnell was sensible before Trump?

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
once the threat of Trump is gone and they've seen the country tire of him. Going extreme far left is not the answer.

Sure. How about... Denmark left, though? Denmark, happiest country in the world. Denmark, which just happens to be dominated by Democratic Socialism, roughly the same Democratic Socialism pushed by AOC, one of the people that far too much media propaganda has been pushing as extreme far left and scaremongering about (GOP propaganda outlets, of course... but even MSM like CNN).

No, McConnell was an ass before Trump but I didn't say McConnell. I said other GOP Congress members may be more sensible with Trump gone. That included the House as well as the Senate.

Personally, I support universal health care and reduced/supplemented according to need (but not free for everyone) college tuition. I think we can learn a lot from Denmark, Canada et al. But I don't think this country is ready for an AOC or Sanders yet as witnessed by the scaremongering we see among conservatives and by Trump's win. Too many people still ignorantly equate Democratic Socialism with Communism. This country needs time for that generation (mine!) to die off. The Millennials have a different view and I have no doubt that the future holds more Democratic Socialism in store for the US. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

[Stacyhs]

I'd agree with that. This country has divided into extremes and neither will work alone. What we need is moderation...a centrist who can give something to both sides. Extremists from either side will NOT work with others. Compromise, people, compromise.

Ok I completely disagree with this. Problem is this is exactly the approach that Democrats have taken for decades now and the only thing it's netted us is neutered, center-right, war mongering corporatist shills that serve the same corporate interest that Republicans do. Just to a slightly lesser degree.

Those Centrist Democrats gave us Roosevelt, LBJ (******* personally but gave us the Civil Rights Act of 1964), both Clintons (I think both were/could have been excellent presidents) and Obama.

This style of moderation is exactly why we lost the public option in the ACA, why mainstream Democrats supported civil unions before they "evolved" into fully supporting gay marriage and why the best candidates the Democratic establishment could whip up is shill supreme Hilary Clinton and Joe Biden. And we all know as centrist as he was, Obama's attempts to reach across the aisle just resulted in him spinning his wheels. Moderation doesn't work in our current political environment.

So what do you suggest? NOT trying to work across the aisle? How's that working for ya so far?
People evolve, they don't spring up fully formed in their opinions at 18 years old. Yes, we started with civil unions because of the Dems when the GOP fully opposed even that. And what do we have now? Fully legal and equal same sex marriage. That is evolution.

The gravitational pull from the Republicans far-right conservatism is so strong that our moderates/centrist are center right. I'm all for the Democrats ACTUALLY moving to the left and becoming LESS compromising and spineless. Assuming some degree of progressive beliefs and policies will become mainstream the Republican party would be pulled closer to the center. This would in time help moderate the Republican party.

I disagree. I consider myself left of center. I do agree that the Dems need to be less spineless but I do not equate being spineless exclusively with the center/center-right. I think the GOP conservatives are spineless because their noses are so far up Trump's ass that they need a flashlight to see anything. Looking at Trump rallies, I see mostly white seniors. I think the Republican Party will moderate as the older generation dies off and a more tolerant generation takes over.

 

[Aridas]

No, McConnell was an ass before Trump but I didn't say McConnell. I said other GOP Congress members may be more sensible with Trump gone. That included the House as well as the Senate.

That's a longshot, really. McConnell was and is an ass, but... for all his problem-causing, he's also a symptom of deeper rooted issues. A bit like the Tea Party.

But I don't think this country is ready for an AOC or Sanders yet as witnessed by the scaremongering we see among conservatives and by Trump's win. Too many people still ignorantly equate Democratic Socialism with Communism. This country needs time for that generation (mine!) to die off. The Millennials have a different view and I have no doubt that the future holds more Democratic Socialism in store for the US. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

Mmm. I'm not so sure. Remember that the progressives in general have been regaining ground rather remarkably as part of the backlash to Trump, though. AOC scares GOP propagandists, and with good reason. Even the more conservative folk that I've heard talk about her tend to think relatively well of her, even if they may disagree with her.

Anyways, random news time. Starting with... AOC, for the... oh I wish it were fun of it.

DHS ripped 1000s of children from their parents & put them in cages w inhumane conditions.

They call their cells “dog pounds” & “freezers.”

I will never apologize for calling these camps what they are.

If that makes you uncomfortable, fight the camps - not the nomenclature.

Related to that - Trump administration argues in court: toothbrushes, soap, beds for kids they lock up shouldn’t be required

The judges were shocked at how atrocious their arguments were, by the look of it.

And, of course - One year after Trump's order supposedly ended family separation, kids are still getting ripped away

Yup.

One of these parents, Adolfo, was separated from his two children for 184 days by the Trump administration under such a false accusation, even though he had documentation from the Salvadoran government showing that he had no criminal record. When he asked for an attorney, agents told him no: “You don’t have any rights here.” Then they took his kids.

A leading civil rights group said other families continue to be ripped apart because officials don’t consider them to be “real.” “We have witnessed hundreds of siblings, uncles and aunts, cousins and grandparents go through the same suffering of losing a child as biological parents face,” said Efrén Olivares of the Texas Civil Rights Project. “Often, these relatives are the only form of parents the children know. Their trauma goes unrecognized, unreported and ignored.”

The group said it has seen hundreds of families separated since both Trump’s executive order and the court order. “As a result of the government's narrow definition of ‘family,’ thousands more migrant children bear the trauma of having their guardians and loved ones taken away, for reasons they cannot comprehend,” Olivares continued.

There's most definitely a humanitarian crisis there, but unfortunately, it's pretty much entirely created, mostly intentionally, by the Trump Administration's choices.

And now, it's time for something mildly different.

Laura Ingraham on reparations and the history of oppression: 'We won, you lost, that's that'

Ahh, the "joys" of State News.