The Trump Presidency 14

[Stacyhs]

Bernie will lose. A lot of voters will just stay home if it comes between Bernie and Donald.
I think that some "Progressives" are living in as much of a fantasy land as the Trump supporters.

I'd vote for Bernie before Trump (hell, I'd vote for the dead Bernie from "Weekend at Bernie's") but he is way down my list of preferred candidates.

 

[dudalb]

Because universal healthcare, living minimum wages, quality education for all, holding corporations accountable and pulling back on the obscene wealth divide is radical.

Question is how do you thwse things, and I think a approach that basically does not like private businesses very much and seems to regard success as a crime is never going to sell in the US. His whole "a thing called capitalism got in the way" comment turned me off to no end.
I strongly support UHC, but am skeptical about the other four as giving way too much power to the government then I would like to see.

Yes, I am strongly opposed to radicalism on both sides of the political spectrum and refuse to believe the only choices are between two different but both bad ideas.

 

[dudalb]

The evils of socialism versus the Trump kleptocracy. It’s a tough call.

Yeah, Hard line government controls everything Socialism has been such a huge success wherever it has been tried.
I just don't like extremes, and thing the idea that the only way to fix one extreme is to go to another has generally proven disasterous.And I a think, outside a few of the most"progressive" districts in the country, Amercans, though they might want specific things like UHC, are not ready to go the Social Democracy route. And a lot of what Bernie advocates goes a lot further then the European Social Deomcracies want.

 

[dudalb]

I'd vote for Bernie before Trump (hell, I'd vote for the dead Bernie from "Weekend at Bernie's") but he is way down my list of preferred candidates.

It's not so much his specific policies...though I would like to know who is going to pay for them....but that Bernie obvilously has real issues with the mere idea of Private Enterprise that concerns me.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Question is how do you thwse things, and I think a approach that basically does not like private businesses very much and seems to regard success as a crime is never going to sell in the US. His whole "a thing called capitalism got in the way" comment turned me off to no end.
I strongly support UHC, but am skeptical about the other four as giving way too much power to the government then I would like to see.

Yes, I am strongly opposed to radicalism on both sides of the political spectrum and refuse to believe the only choices are between two different but both bad ideas.

That is a disingenuous framing.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Yeah, Hard line government controls everything Socialism has been such a huge success wherever it has been tried.
I just don't like extremes, and thing the idea that the only way to fix one extreme is to go to another has generally proven disasterous.And I a think, outside a few of the most"progressive" districts in the country, Amercans, though they might want specific things like UHC, are not ready to go the Social Democracy route. And a lot of what Bernie advocates goes a lot further then the European Social Deomcracies want.

The idea that America would prefer another four years of dumb, chaotic, self interest, and refugee concentration camps over genuine efforts to improve the lives of ordinary citizens at some cost to the uberwealthy and controlling corporations is hard to understand.

You are probably right. America is ******.

 

[dudalb]

The idea that America would prefer another four years of dumb, chaotic, self interest over genuine efforts to improve the lives of ordinary citizens at some cost to the uberwealthy and controlling corporations is hard to understand.

You are probably right. America is ******.

and the open contempt that lot of progressives have for the American people for not being as far to the left as they would like is also playing right into's Trump's hands.
Give the American people a reasonable alternative to Trump's idiocy and they will take it. Give them a choice of extremes, many will sit it out.

 

[Sideroxylon]

and the open contempt that lot of progressives have for the American people for not being as far to the left as they would like is also playing right into's Trump's hands.
Give the American people a reasonable alternative to Trump's idiocy and they will take it. Give them a choice of extremes, many will sit it out.

Bernie is offering reasonable alternatives that are framed as extreme. Look at the way Obama’s health care plan were framed by lies. Republicans will continue to lie and push the idols of capitalism which the masses will continue to buy against their own interests. The contempt from the left is as understandable as Trump supporters reactions to it.

 

[Stacyhs]

and the open contempt that lot of progressives have for the American people for not being as far to the left as they would like is also playing right into's Trump's hands.
Give the American people a reasonable alternative to Trump's idiocy and they will take it. Give them a choice of extremes, many will sit it out.

I'd agree with that. This country has divided into extremes and neither will work alone. What we need is moderation...a centrist who can give something to both sides. Extremists from either side will NOT work with others. Compromise, people, compromise.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I'd agree with that. This country has divided into extremes and neither will work alone. What we need is moderation...a centrist who can give something to both sides. Extremists from either side will NOT work with others. Compromise, people, compromise.

And more importantly, someone who doesn’t plan to upset the rorts gravy train for the obscenely wealthy or rein in the political power of corporations, hold them accountable or make them cut into profits with fair wages will get the all important backing of these same powerful people. The media can keep framing fair deals in the interests of ordinary folk as extreme. Just as with health care. I mean a lot of powerful people would stand to lose a lot of money if you fixed that mess. Extreme is the scare framing for any efforts to take care of the rigged economy.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I'd agree with that. This country has divided into extremes and neither will work alone. What we need is moderation...a centrist who can give something to both sides. Extremists from either side will NOT work with others. Compromise, people, compromise.

It can't happen though, Obama was centrist as they come but that didn't stop any Republican from refusing to work with the radical leftist. He's still thought of as that commie muslim kenyan by the Alex Jones crowd.

 

[Stacyhs]

It can't happen though, Obama was centrist as they come but that didn't stop any Republican from refusing to work with the radical leftist. He's still thought of as that commie muslim kenyan by the Alex Jones crowd.

It can happen. The Alex Jones crowd is hopeless but the GOP in Congress may be willing to be more sensible once the threat of Trump is gone and they've seen the country tire of him. Going extreme far left is not the answer.

 

[Sideroxylon]

It can happen. The Alex Jones crowd is hopeless but the GOP in Congress may be willing to be more sensible once the threat of Trump is gone and they've seen the country tire of him. Going extreme far left is not the answer.

What are some real policy examples of this category for you?

 

[Mumbles]

It can happen. The Alex Jones crowd is hopeless but the GOP in Congress may be willing to be more sensible once the threat of Trump is gone and they've seen the country tire of him. Going extreme far left is not the answer.

Ah, a centrist democrat, like Obama.

Look, I loved Obama, if I met him, I'd probably just burst into tears. But as I said before, the reason I like Harris so much is that she's prepared to McConnell to engage in mindless obstruction, as he's done for the past 12 years. The GOP may well be impossible to redeem at this point - it's entirely up to them to walk back to the negotiating table, and so far they've shown no willingness at all to do so, as a group.

 

[Solitaire]

Trump winning 6% of black males isn't a lot.

It would've been much worse. Fortunately for the pro Trump side, Kanye West
showed up, gave his opinion to the pollsters, and got it over the margin of error.

 

[EvilBiker]

I can’t find a transcript of President Trump’s Orlando speech on the White House website. Am I simply technologically illiterate or is it not there?

Happily, Trevor Noah has that covered.

ETA: sorry if I linked the video incorrectly.

 

[The Atheist]

SOrry, but as long as you have been posting here you have been well left of center.

Correct. I wasn't saying I liked the centre, but I thought it was the best way for the Dems to unseat Trump.

Having seen the field, and Trump's popularity staying exactly the same for a long time now, I don't think a centrist candidate can actually beat him.

Accordingly, there is only one thing to try - shift left.

Won't happen, though. Pelosi, Biden and the other old faces will ensure the status quo remains, and you'll get Trump for four more years.

And the whole idea of using one extreme to try to balance another has never turns out very well.

I don't think anything being proposed by either Warren or Sanders could be classed as extreme, unless you're an irredeemable Republican or have the surname Trump. Just because the opponents call it extreme doesn't make it so.

 

[Parsman]

Correct. I wasn't saying I liked the centre, but I thought it was the best way for the Dems to unseat Trump.

Having seen the field, and Trump's popularity staying exactly the same for a long time now, I don't think a centrist candidate can actually beat him.

Accordingly, there is only one thing to try - shift left.

Won't happen, though. Pelosi, Biden and the other old faces will ensure the status quo remains, and you'll get Trump for four more years.



I don't think anything being proposed by either Warren or Sanders could be classed as extreme, unless you're an irredeemable Republican or have the surname Trump. Just because the opponents call it extreme doesn't make it so.

This. Most countries in Western Europe have socialist elements in their government because they run a mixed economy. I think it was Secular Talk where the host said (paraphrasing) Government shouldn't be making your sneakers or telling you what colour car to drive, but Government should be in the business of making sure your infrastructure is sound, that people get good health care and education and that they are safe on the streets. We (most of us anyway) don't hate business or success in this model, and there are plenty of super-rich and successful people in Western Europe whatever the US media tells you. It is just that there are different expectations of the private and the public spheres here. This is hardly extremism. You may have to pay a little more in taxes to the Government to achieve some of these community goals and the 1% may have to pay more than that but society as a whole benefits. I understand that the USA is coming from a different social and economic philosophy and it might be a harder sell than in the rest of the world, but socialism with a mixed economy isn't an extreme in the world, it is a norm.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Question is how do you thwse things, and I think a approach that basically does not like private businesses very much and seems to regard success as a crime is never going to sell in the US. His whole "a thing called capitalism got in the way" comment turned me off to no end.
I strongly support UHC, but am skeptical about the other four as giving way too much power to the government then I would like to see.
Yes, I am strongly opposed to radicalism on both sides of the political spectrum and refuse to believe the only choices are between two different but both bad ideas.

Out of "universal healthcare, living minimum wages, quality education for all, holding corporations accountable and pulling back on the obscene wealth divide", only UHC is NOT too much power to the government??

Seriously, UHC would be the most radical change in the USA that a federal government could pull off. And it would centralise the "power" of health care responsibility as a result. So the others would be a doddle, surely!

Not that UHC is "socialist" (that handy-dandy right-wing swear-word for anything they don't like). Plenty of distinctly conservative, non-socialist governments have seen that UHC is also a method of keeping health care costs under better control - more bang for the buck. Isn't that the definition of "success"?

 

[Norman Alexander]

and the open contempt that lot of progressives have for the American people for not being as far to the left as they would like is also playing right into's Trump's hands.
Give the American people a reasonable alternative to Trump's idiocy and they will take it. Give them a choice of extremes, many will sit it out.

This is where things go weird. If you want to count the distinctly MOR governments of countries like UK, Canada and Australia as "radical left socialist" then you need to adjust your sights. Last seen, these countries have not succumbed to tyrant dictators, running gun-battles in the streets, and rampant inflation, etc. (Brexit aside - that's actually a far-right wet dream gone badly wrong). Australia just re-elected a distinctly right-wing government (by our standards) and yet even they would be considered no further right than Bernie or maybe the Democrats.

Because nothing Bernie is advocating is any further "left" than has already been implemented in these countries for some time. We have UHC, wage control, a staggered tax system, etc. To us, Bernie is a run-of-the-mill centrist pollie with nothing new to tell us. Ho hum, really.

Or to put it another way, Bernie is actually advocating that the USA deserves what we have already.