Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Lithrael said:
This looks like a swing and a miss to me. ‘We’ is just ‘the majority mainstream in the west’ opinion, and happened to be a very widely held belief.
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It's not a belief. Just because you disagree with something does not make it a belief. And I'm not talking about the west. I'm talking about homo sapiens. In fact I said thousands but I could probably have said a billion and gotten away with it.

If you use the God metaphor, your statement would look like ‘We managed on the Catholic definition for a thousand years.
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Sex is not a belief system. Nice try.

ETA even more: and I don’t get the impression that gender was something that many people ever really sat down and thought about throughout history.
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Because it was clear that there were two sexes, and associated genders, with only a tiny number of people for whom that determination was harder. That has not changed. Our understanding has not changed, either. What we have here is people so dedicated to the idea of offending no one at no time that they are willing to accept counter-factual claims from said tiny number of people to upend the entire concept of sex and gender.
 
The Atheist said:
Some of it is plain insanity. No matter how trans a trans woman is, she doesn't have a uterus, won't ever need a cervical smear, and is highly unlikely to develop breast cancer.
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And also women stop being women if they have hysterectomies of course.

Yes everyone has unique medical issues but why does someone other than their doctor care and why does someones risk of breast cancer effect what bathroom they use?
 
p0lka said:
I'm perfectly ok with treating a transwoman as a woman and a transman as a man, (I don't treat males and females differently anyway, so makes no odds to me), I'll treat people how they wish to be treated as I like seeing smiles on peoples faces, define yourself and I will just go along with it to make you ok.

But I am suspending reality as I do so.
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Just like the fiction that someone who had a hysterectomy is still a woman, or someone who had a vasectomy is still a man.
 
quadraginta said:
We know they had a miscarriage, and we know that there seems to have been some initial confusion about the hospital's treatment regimen as a result of their trans status. It seems apparent that fetal distress was already in progress when they presented themselves to the hospital

But as far as I could determine from the articles I read, there was nothing which established that any different treatment regimen would have prevented the miscarriage or substantially changed any outcomes.

That's all conjecture.
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Yea they are supposed to simply refuse all medical treatment to them, see the goals of the Trump administration.
 
Belz... said:
Sex is not a belief system. Nice try.
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You laugh, but more and more I find it hard to conceptualize certain aspects of the transgender argument being used in this thread as anything else.

Sex might not be a belief system, but argue for "Personal Identity as Objective Fact" hard enough and it turns into one, or close enough to not make a difference.

More and more that's what this discussion is feeling like; arguing religion with someone.

Again I mentioned I've half but only half jokingly referred to gender identity as a "gender soul" on a few occasions in the this thread is little is making that comparison less valid as the argument goes on.
 
JoeMorgue said:
You laugh, but more and more I find it hard to conceptualize certain aspects of the transgender argument being used in this thread as anything else.
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Of course sex has to be a belief system, or at the very least gender has to be a completely different thing that's only determined by the person's feelings. Otherwise, that would mean that those feelings are objectively wrong and that would be transphobic! As soon as they determined that trans people were a minority, and therefore oppressed and in need of perpetual propping up, that conclusion was inevitable.
 
Recently there was a picture doing the rounds on twitter of a guy in a dress at some awards ceremony.

All the "gender is the same as biological sex" crowd were saying that this was proof that there was a war on masculinity.

I don't get it. Presumably under all that crinoline he had meat and two veg. So if gender and biological sex were the same thing, how is a guy in a dress a war on masculinity?
 
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I think it is odd that back in the 70's I was constantly arguing that if someone is an adult and biologically male then he is a man, full stop.

I was getting push back from an entirely different crowd - the macho, the blokey blokes, who would say, "No way, just having a dick doesn't make you a man, there is more to it than that".

And what they meant is that people like me didn't make the grade.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I don't share D4m10n's "Well the dictionary says" focus, but I think we all need to come to the understanding that for some people in this discussion the fact that certain things are very poorly and fluidly defined is a feature, not a bug. They don't want gender/sex defined because they won't be able to use to mean whatever they need it to mean at this one particular moment in time.
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This is why we need to be careful to define our terms, whether we reference common usage or stipulate our own usage.

Sex: A set of phenotypic characteristics typically associated with either karyotype 46,XX (female) or 46,XY (male).

Gender: A set of behaviors, roles & norms typically associated with one sex.

Belz... said:
Because it was clear that there were two sexes, and associated genders, with only a tiny number of people for whom that determination was harder. That has not changed.
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What has changed is that we now have the science and technology to artificially change anyone's hormonal balance, thereby opening up new treatment possibilities for those experiencing dysphoria.
 
d4m10n said:
This is why we need to be careful to define our terms, whether we reference common usage or stipulate our own usage.

Sex: A set of phenotypic characteristics typically associated with either karyotype 46,XX (female) or 46,XY (male).
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Though that is a very different definition to others on offer here, those were focused on sperm and egg production not chromosomes.
 
d4m10n said:
What has changed is that we now have the science and technology to artificially change anyone's hormonal balance, thereby opening up new treatment possibilities for those experiencing dysphoria.
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True, but it doesn't magically make you into a different sex. That's why the term 'trans' is useful.
 
d4m10n said:
This is why we need to be careful to define our terms, whether we reference common usage or stipulate our own usage.

Sex: A set of phenotypic characteristics typically associated with either karyotype 46,XX (female) or 46,XY (male).

Gender: A set of behaviors, roles & norms typically associated with one sex..
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"Typically associated" in the first definition is a bit off in my opinion since that's the literal defining quality of (as in you wouldn't say 4 right angles and 4 equal sides are "typically associated" with square so much as that's what a square is) but other then that I agree with the terms you are using.

Problem is using those definitions puts me at "Sex cannot be changed by simple wish fulfillment" and "Gender shouldn't exist" which is apparently not the right answer to a lot of people.
 
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Robin said:
I think it is odd that back in the 70's I was constantly arguing that if someone is an adult and biologically male then he is a man, full stop.

I was getting push back from an entirely different crowd - the macho, the blokey blokes, who would say, "No way, just having a dick doesn't make you a man, there is more to it than that".

And what they meant is that people like me didn't make the grade.
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Times may change. The imbecility never does :(
 
Robin said:
I think it is odd that back in the 70's I was constantly arguing that if someone is an adult and biologically male then he is a man, full stop.

I was getting push back from an entirely different crowd - the macho, the blokey blokes, who would say, "No way, just having a dick doesn't make you a man, there is more to it than that".

And what they meant is that people like me didn't make the grade.
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Shadowdweller said:
Times may change. The imbecility never does :(
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And I'm still of the mind that's how we got to where we are now.

The stupid, arbitrary at best, damaging at worst "rules" placed on the two biological sexes just weren't go away fast enough, so some people decided to square the circle they would just declare who they were by fiat.

"Oh so you say I can't do X and be a 'real man?' Fine, then I'm a woman."

My only problem has been that lives nowhere to fight those stupid rolls since now they sort of have to stay in place in order to have something to subvert so people who don't put useless roles on people based on their genital structure come across as the bad guys because we're not properly acknowledging their subversion of standards we don't think exist in the way we're told we have to.
 
d4m10n said:
I think we need to leave some conceptual elbow room for individuals who have atypical sexual development, e.g. Semenya.
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Definitions don't have to be mathematically perfectly precise to be accurate or honest, else you'll just never stop splitting hairs upon splitting hairs in a quest to achieve some impossible level of none-ambiguity.
 
JoeMorgue said:
And I'm still of the mind that's how we got to where we are now.

The stupid, arbitrary at best, damaging at worst "rules" placed on the two biological sexes just weren't go away fast enough, so some people decided to square the circle they would just declare who they were by fiat.

"Oh so you say I can't do X and be a 'real man?' Fine, then I'm a woman."

My only problem has been that lives nowhere to fight those stupid rolls since now they sort of have to stay in place in order to have something to subvert so people who don't put useless roles on people based on their genital structure come across as the bad guys because we're not properly acknowledging their subversion of standards we don't think exist in the way we're told we have to.
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I get a kick out of this. This thread starts off with whether or not it is fair for biological men to compete against women in sports and the people who say "No!" explain why it isn't fair but now they are bigots because someone way back when insulted your boyhood.

Most of the people who see gender as being male and female couldn't give a rats ass what trans-people want to do. Go do it. Just don't feel that we have to buy into the misinformation and language spin.

And the fluid gender believers never address the real world problems that basing bathrooms on this new, misrepresentation of gender creates. Bathrooms were created based on sex for a reason.There are more than 100 recognized genders. Are we just going to build a world of bathrooms so everyone will feel comfy?

Unless people really believe that if I am feeling emotional today I should be using the women's bathroom because that's what gender means? :rolleyes:
 
And, and I think this keeps getting lost in the shuffle, is that functionally I treat transgender people exactly as they claim they want to be treated but I'm a "bad guy" because I'm not getting there via the "right" way.

I treat a "man who identifies as a woman" like a woman... but that's because I don't treat men and women differently (in the ways and on the scale we're discussing here anyway.)

But that's not good enough. I have to treat men and women differently so that I can treat the man who identifies as a woman like a man.

Again you strip out B.S. manufactured gender differences and we're left with biological objective facts and... pronouns.
 
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