Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Belz... said:
Once again you mistake me for an American. What's your problem with Americans, anyway?
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No, I know you're not an American, which is why I deliberately didn't put "American flag".

Belz... said:
Yes. Sorry to break it to you, but humans are a social species and very often individual humans do things in what they consider to be in the service of the larger community.
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Anyone who joins an armed force is either deluded or lying to themselves if they think it's any kind of public service.

Belz... said:
...you choose to bomb civilians? What?
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Very droll.

I have a handy list of atrocities US forces have committed this century with not a single charge, let alone conviction. Let me know if you need to see it.
 
The Atheist said:
I have a handy list of atrocities US forces have committed this century with not a single charge, let alone conviction. Let me know if you need to see it.
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How many of them involved targeting people b/c of their gender identity?
 
d4m10n said:
How many of them involved targeting people b/c of their gender identity?
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Good point - you've taken the derail back on topic.

Sexual assault within the US armed forces seems fairly high, and interestingly, the assaults were weighted 2:1 against FtM trans. I think you could probably expect that with a little forethought.

They have a much harder row to hoe than FtM trans, but they don't have any bathroom trouble!
 
The Atheist said:
No, I know you're not an American, which is why I deliberately didn't put "American flag".
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So why did you mention something that clearly refers to American behaviour?

Anyone who joins an armed force is either deluded or lying to themselves if they think it's any kind of public service.
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We get it: you hate soldiers. You've made that clear. But where you go koo-koo is when you pretend that no one could have a different opinion without being dishonest, evil, stupid or foolish.

Very droll.
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It wasn't a joke. I have no idea what you're saying if it didn't mean what you plainly said.

I have a handy list of atrocities US forces have committed this century with not a single charge, let alone conviction. Let me know if you need to see it.
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Why would I need to see it? What relevance would it have to what I said? Or the topic, in fact?
 
Belz... said:
So why did you mention something that clearly refers to American behaviour?

<snip>/QUOTE]


Our most recent Trump meme on the topic aside, is 'flag hugging', AKA 'flag waving', AKA 'wearing their patriotism on their sleeve' AKA 'inciting nationalism', AKA etc., etc., really a uniquely American behavior?

I would be surprised to learn this to be the case, but I'm open to revelation.
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quadraginta said:
Belz... said:
So why did you mention something that clearly refers to American behaviour?

<snip>
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Our most recent Trump meme on the topic aside, is 'flag hugging', AKA 'flag waving', AKA 'wearing their patriotism on their sleeve' AKA 'inciting nationalism', AKA etc., etc., really a uniquely American behavior?

I would be surprised to learn this to be the case, but I'm open to revelation.
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I thought the conventional wisdom was that Europeans were much less openly patriotic than Americans, and that Germans (for example) found the American habit of displaying their national flag in front of every home and business to be somewhat distasteful. For years I've been under the impression that flag-waving patriotism was a uniquely and disquietingly American trait.

ETA: I don't think The Atheist was saying Belz... is American. I think The Atheist was saying that Belz... suffers from an excess of jingoistic nationalism, that prompts him to reflexively champion the rapists and war criminals that are his country's armed forces. Belz... then takes offense (which I think was the plan all along) at being accused of what he thinks of as "American" attitudes.

Which brings us full circle back to your question. Belz..., a Canadian, sees flag-waving patriotism as an American characteristic which he does not share. On the other hand, he doesn't hate the Canadian Navy, so maybe The Atheist has a point.
 
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theprestige said:
I thought the conventional wisdom was that Europeans were much less openly patriotic than Americans, and that Germans (for example) found the American habit of displaying their national flag in front of every home and business to be somewhat distasteful. For years I've been under the impression that flag-waving patriotism was a uniquely and disquietingly American trait.
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Can confirm this for Belgium and surrounding regions. It's just not done to display national flags everywhere (or even anywhere, the only place you'd find them is in front of city hall or something).
 
So if Trans Women are exactly like Women, why do they call themselves Trans Women? Why not just call themselves Women?
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
So if Trans Women are exactly like Women, why do they call themselves Trans Women? Why not just call themselves Women?
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They do. See there are women, some of whom are cis and some of whom are trans.

Kind of like why would black women call themselves black women instead of just women.
 
ponderingturtle said:
See there are women, some of whom are cis and some of whom are trans.
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What do these women have in common?

(Seems like there must be some characteristic or set of characteristics which leads us to create a catchall category for over half of humanity.)
 
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So we have men, women, and "Schrodinger's Gender" which is or isn't one of the first two depending on the conversation being had and the phase of the moon.
 
Okay to sum this up.

Transwomen and ciswomen are the same gender but different sex.
And the difference between sex and gender is the difference between a ciswoman and a transwoman.
20 GOTO 10

Good glad we've cleared that up.
 
theprestige said:
Which brings us full circle back to your question. Belz..., a Canadian, sees flag-waving patriotism as an American characteristic which he does not share. On the other hand, he doesn't hate the Canadian Navy, so maybe The Atheist has a point.
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The Atheist seems to view everything through the lens of "army bad". So even if I'm not a raving patriot, me not having a problem with people showing patriotism is unacceptable.
 
ponderingturtle said:
See there are women, some of whom are cis and some of whom are trans.

Kind of like why would black women call themselves black women instead of just women.
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No, not like that at all. "Trans" has a specific meaning. Trans-Neptunian objects are NOT Neptunian objects, even if black Neptunian objects are.
 
I don't share D4m10n's "Well the dictionary says" focus, but I think we all need to come to the understanding that for some people in this discussion the fact that certain things are very poorly and fluidly defined is a feature, not a bug. They don't want gender/sex defined because they won't be able to use to mean whatever they need it to mean at this one particular moment in time.

There's been a "Will you just shutup and accept what the poor disadvantaged person is telling you and stop oppressing them by asking it to make sense" subtext to this conversation for a while now and it's not getting any better.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I don't share D4m10n's "Well the dictionary says" focus, but I think we all need to come to the understanding that for some people in this discussion the fact that certain things are very poorly and fluidly defined is a feature, not a bug.
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Yeah but losing meaning altogether because of excessive fluidity flushes it down immediately doesn't sound very useful.
 
Belz... said:
Yeah but losing meaning altogether because of excessive fluidity flushes it down immediately doesn't sound very useful.
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I would describe it more as intentionally counter-useful.

As in this hasn't happened accidentally. This carefully, even if not intentionally, cultivated language that keeps the discussion in a constant state of arguing over terms that one side is specifically not using consistently.

That's why we haven't got a straight answer in months and 2 threads as basic questions of what terms mean because the answer is "They mean whatever we need them to mean so we sound right and whatever argument we're using right now."

That's why and how the people advocating for transwomen have kept the most basic question of what a transwoman is stuck in a quantum flux of women, not women, special sub-category of women, and "women without any modifiers allowed at all" all being aggressively defended even when they contradict each other and the waveform just refuses to collapse this entire discussion.

It's third person, by proxy gatekeeping... and they won't even tell us where the gate is at and they're hoping nobody noticing that is is because they don't know where the gate is at either.
 
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