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Trans Women are not Women

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And sometimes, we've separated them into more than just the common two. And some very small places only have a single restroom with no gender separation, intended for single-person occupancy.

Incidentally, many places in the US already have "family" restrooms which are non-gender-specific, intended primarily for parents and very young children. So yes, there are instances where we, in contemporary society, provide three separate bathroom facilities. Don't see how the cost isn't justified.

That things were different before isn't a justification for a change now. And the thing is, it's more difficult to change those things in the current setup than it was in certain times in the past.

Funny, we had no problem spending extra on more-than-two-types bathrooms when it was needed to keep those darkies separated from good white folks.

See above. The fact that it could be done then, for the reasons they had, doesn't mean that it would be easy now for other reasons. It just doesn't follow.
 
That's the nature of compromise. If the options are between everyone being less than completely satisfied, nobody being satisfied, and some being miserable I'll choose the first option.

Zig didn't say "completely".

Less miserable than they'd be if they had no bathroom access at all

There is no scenario in which anyone would have no access. That's not even on the table.
 
Zig didn't say "completely".



There is no scenario in which anyone would have no access. That's not even on the table.

I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp: having an uncategorized bathroom is a better option for transwomen than making them use the men's room. Is that unclear? And again, yes, I know they'd prefer to use the women's room. That's why it's a compromise.
 
I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp: having an uncategorized bathroom is a better option for transwomen than making them use the men's room. Is that unclear? And again, yes, I know they'd prefer to use the women's room. That's why it's a compromise.

I think that's pretty clear and I also think in general it's going to be true. Transwomen will probably be happier to have a unisex bathroom to go to than being required to use the men's room, even if there is also a women's room that they aren't allowed to use.

I do think that the fact that it requires a whole new room beyond what we already have is a meaningful issue, but that's a matter of how important this is to us as a society, and whether or not transwomen in general would be willing to accept your compromise solution as good enough.
 
IIRC it was actually already suggested that trans-women could use the disabled's bathroom, but this was rejected because it didn't validate their identity as women.


Everyone who wants a bathroom can currently have a bathroom. As Caveman says it's about validation.

Trans-identifying men want to be treated as women in every conceivable way (right down to being called for cervical smears and mammograms), which means access to all women's single-sex spaces without challenge. This is not about any danger or even embarrassment they face in men's single-sex spaces, or they'd be content with the offer of a third space. They reject any such offer indignantly, because it doesn't validate them as being "real women".

We kind of got along for decades because there was a gatekeeping process and women kind of imagined that the creeps and the perverts who wanted access to women's spaces for creepy and perverted reasons were being screened out by that. So even if we felt a bit uncomfortable about it we didn't make a fuss when some bloke wearing a bad wig and a mother-of-the-bride outfit came into the ladies.

Now a few things have changed. First, we discover that we were labouring under a misapprehension. The bloke in the mother-of-the-bride outfit probably still has all his tackle and no intention of getting rid of it. He also quite possibly doesn't have a gender recognition certificate and so hasn't been through any gatekeeping process. This is a concern.

Second, and this is the crux of the matter, the reason the spotlight has been turned on this now is that the militant trans activists have almost succeeded in getting the politicians to legislate to remove the gatekeeping process. Just as women are waking up to what's going on, and saying wait a minute we're not cool with this, they're being told that whatever safeguards there were are to be removed. The excuse is, well people are self-identifying anyway, so what?

Third, obviously the official removal of the gatekeeping and it becoming public knowledge that any man simply has to say "I identify as a woman" and he's untouchable in a female-only space is going to become known to creeps and predators of all descriptions. We're already hearing some reports of creepy men in the ladies saying "I identify as a woman" when challenged.

Fourth, the actual dempgraphic of trans-identifying men is changing. The "old school" transsexuals who just wanted to fit in as unobtrusively as they can are still there, but they have been joined by a band of aggressively male trans activists who seem to take delight in making women uncomfortable and branding anyone who even looks sideways at their five o'clock shadow as a terf, a transphobe and a bigot. This is not OK.

The problem with all suggestions about third spaces is that this solution gives women their single-sex space back. To the trans lobby this is anathema. Women must not be permitted to have any single-sex spaces that exclude males, because "trans women are women" and must not on any account be excluded because validation.

And that's where we are. And if you think that's not autogynaephilia, I beg to differ.
 
The problem with all suggestions about third spaces is that this solution gives women their single-sex space back. To the trans lobby this is anathema.
Well, quite.
Three bathrooms is complete defeat for transwomen who want to use a female only bathroom so that's out.

It is a victory for women who want to preserve their segregated bathrooms.

So it isn't a compromise. And anyway compromise is not possible with mutually exclusive competing objectives, the Venn diagram does not have an intersection.
As I already said it isn't a compromise. It is one side prevailing and the other side being denied. Oh it's a superior resolution in my view absolutely. But I wouldn't pretend being on the winning side was compromising that's fake news.
 
No, it really doesn't.

Dude, testosterone alters behaviour and perspective. Men and women have, on average, different levels of it and other hormones. That means that it will affect behaviour differently for both sexes. You can't deny this.

No that would be you and Zig.

Now you're just knee-jerk nay-saying. How can we be over-simplifying an issue when our entire point is that it's more complex than you're pretending?

Then why are there cultures where women are more aggressive than men?

I know of no such culture.

As I have told you multiple times already, the low-T men have more T than the high-T women. So by your simplistic argument (ie where aggressiveness is a simple linear relation to absolute T levels across the sexes)

For the umpteenth time that IS NOT MY ARGUMENT. At least make a modicrum of effort to understand what other people are saying before pretending that you know what they're talking about.

NOBODY said it was a simple linear progression. That is YOUR simplistic interpretation. It is entirely possible for testosterone to be heavily involved in aggression, to cause men in general to be more aggressive than women AND some women to be more aggressive than some men even if those men have a lower testosterone level.
 
It's not unclear. There's just no reason to believe that it's true.

Why do you think it is?

Why do you think it isn't? Do you think forcing transwomen to use the men's room is a better option, for than? Do you think that given a choice between no bathroom, an uncategorized bathroom, or the men's room transwomen wouldn't pick the uncategorized bathroom?

"Why I think it is" is because it seems the best of those three options to me. I can't break it down further than that, it seems self evident to me. Asking why is Bob-level four-year-old questioning.
 
TragicMonkey's solution seems a great compromise to me, but...…


I have only skimmed the last few pages, so I apologize if I'm repeating things others have already said. Many have noted that the trans activists wouldn't accept the compromise because it doesn't validate their identity as their chosen gender. This isn't just a theory in the US at least. It's well worn ground. When this subject comes up in American high schools, the transgirl who wants to use female facilities is usually offered private facilities instead. I suspect that in quite a few cases, she says that is fine and all is well. Those are the cases we don't hear about.


However, that isn't good enough for some. Those are the cases where lawsuits are filed and headlines are made. Either the school district is sued by the transgender for discrimination, or they are sued for violation of privacy if the school district allows access to the female facilities for the transgirl.


If the issue were simply access to bathrooms or locker rooms, TM's suggestion has been tried, and in many cases was rejected by the transgender activist side.
 
Why do you think it isn't?

Where did I say that? Just because I'm asking you to support your claim doesn't mean I've already concluded the opposite, you know.

Do you think forcing transwomen to use the men's room is a better option, for than? Do you think that given a choice between no bathroom, an uncategorized bathroom, or the men's room transwomen wouldn't pick the uncategorized bathroom?

"Why I think it is" is because it seems the best of those three options to me. I can't break it down further than that, it seems self evident to me. Asking why is Bob-level four-year-old questioning.

In other words, you feel that it's a better solution, but you can't really explain why. Fair enough, but I wouldn't support such a solution based on a feeling. Perhaps luchog can tell us what they think about it.
 
Where did I say that? Just because I'm asking you to support your claim doesn't mean I've already concluded the opposite, you know.



In other words, you feel that it's a better solution, but you can't really explain why. Fair enough, but I wouldn't support such a solution based on a feeling. Perhaps luchog can tell us what they think about it.

I don't know how to explain why a good thing is better than a bad thing without going back to Aristotle. I can't believe you are sincerely asking that so I'm forced to conclude you're simply trolling. If not then perhaps you can define what "good" is without resorting to feelings. Two and a half millennia of philosophy hasn't managed it but I'm certain you can, in order to justify quibbling about public toilets on the internet.
 
I think the issue is we're talking different versions of the concept of "compromise." Neither of them are the "right" way either in linguistic technicality or practical application.

We have X number of groups with incompatible goals and our "job" as a society is to at least try to reconcile those goals and, if failing that, at least reduce the friction as much as reasonably and practically possible.

1. TragicMonkey's creation of a third category is a good solution for directing the conflict away from people who don't care about it or who don't see it as a conflict.

2. Belz is attempting to create a solution while retaining all the participants in the debate.

And again neither of these solutions is inherently bad or wrong or invalid, I think we're just coming at it from different directions.
 
I don't know how to explain why a good thing is better than a bad thing without going back to Aristotle. I can't believe you are sincerely asking that so I'm forced to conclude you're simply trolling.

For ****'s sake I'm not asking you to explain why good is better than bad. I'm asking you why you think it's good.
 
I think the issue is this:

TM: This compromise is better than the current situation.

I think that's true except potentially if the expense of creating a third space makes in unfeasible, but it's not clear to me if it does.

Others: Transpeople won't be happy with that compromise, so it's not a solution to the problem.

Again this isn't clear either. While the compromise is clearly better than the status quo, that doesn't mean that it's good enough to accept if that implies giving up the goal of simply having transpeople use the toilet of their choice.

So I think both sides may be right and are perhaps talking past each other.
 
Incidentally, many places in the US already have "family" restrooms which are non-gender-specific, intended primarily for parents and very young children. So yes, there are instances where we, in contemporary society, provide three separate bathroom facilities. Don't see how the cost isn't justified.

It often is, in new construction. Retrofitting existing buildings? Not so much.

Funny, we had no problem spending extra on more-than-two-types bathrooms when it was needed to keep those darkies separated from good white folks.

Who is "we"? Plenty of people had a problem with it even at the time, and I wasn't even around then.
 
For ****'s sake I'm not asking you to explain why good is better than bad. I'm asking you why you think it's good.

Because the alternatives are less desirable and/or less effective. The possibilities I see here are:

1. No bathroom access for transwomen at all
2. Access to the men's room
3. Access to an uncategorized bathroom
4. Access to the women's room

I believe transwomen would prefer 4 to the others and rank 1 and 2 as less preferable to 3. The compromise is settling for 3 because while it's not as good as 4 it's still way better than 1 or 2. I can't "prove" that, I guess the only means to do so would be a huge survey? Or implement each option and then do polls afterward to ask how they felt. Which seems impractical. I really don't see why this is so questionable it even needs proving. I don't have immediate proof that people will mostly prefer eating chocolate over cat turds either, but feel free to conduct an elaborate survey or taste test.

As for the other "side" this compromise preserves the sacred spaces of the "real women" who seem to be hysterical with dread that somebody else might spy on them making ploppies. It gives them what they say they want while not actually exterminating transwomen out of existence, which they haven't openly admitted to wishing for so it needn't be accommodated.
 
Because the alternatives are less desirable and/or less effective.

That's not very helpful. Obviously you think the solution is better because the alternatives are worse.

Incidently could you retract your accusation of trolling?

1. No bathroom access for transwomen at all

Which is not an option.

2. Access to the men's room
3. Access to an uncategorized bathroom
4. Access to the women's room

Yes, those are our basic options.

I believe transwomen would prefer 4 to the others and rank 1 and 2 as less preferable to 3.

And here's the crux of the problem: what's your basis for that? You think they'd prefer option 3 to option 2 if they can't get 4, but I'm not sure that's true.
 
Because the alternatives are less desirable and/or less effective. The possibilities I see here are:

1. No bathroom access for transwomen at all
2. Access to the men's room
3. Access to an uncategorized bathroom
4. Access to the women's room

I believe transwomen would prefer 4 to the others and rank 1 and 2 as less preferable to 3. The compromise is settling for 3 because while it's not as good as 4 it's still way better than 1 or 2. I can't "prove" that, I guess the only means to do so would be a huge survey? Or implement each option and then do polls afterward to ask how they felt. Which seems impractical. I really don't see why this is so questionable it even needs proving. I don't have immediate proof that people will mostly prefer eating chocolate over cat turds either, but feel free to conduct an elaborate survey or taste test.

As for the other "side" this compromise preserves the sacred spaces of the "real women" who seem to be hysterical with dread that somebody else might spy on them making ploppies. It gives them what they say they want while not actually exterminating transwomen out of existence, which they haven't openly admitted to wishing for so it needn't be accommodated.

Again, in at least some places where option 3 has been made available, it has been explicitly rejected by trans activists.

I think it's a fine idea myself, but let's keep expectations reasonable. Not everyone wants compromise.
 
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