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Trans Women are not Women

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Francesca R said:
"Trans" is a red herring (which Rolfe pointed out) since Semenya has never identified as male and then transitioned. Also whether "46XY DSD" is deemed "male bodied" or "intersex" is not that important, it is not biologically female, and XX genotypes (biological females) are not required to medically reduce their testosterone concentration even if it is unusually high...
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For those who prefer to learn by watching videos, Noel Plum recently covered this stuff:
https://twitter.com/noelplum/status/1137439118236028928
 
Here's another one, from last year.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...e-s-no-simple-answer-how-we-treat-transgender

Prisoner going by the name "Marie Dean" was on hunger strike in a men's prison because he wasn't being given access to "hair straighteners, epilator or any makeup." Cruel and unusual punishment indeed, my heart bleeds. There was an online petition protesting about the injustice of this and demanding that Dean be moved to a women's prison forthwith.

Dean was reported to have been imprisoned for burglary, but closer examination of the case (to explain why he had been given an indeterminate sentence, which is not usual for an offence of burglary) revealed

Dean was convicted of over 30 offences including voyeurism, aggravated burglary and assaulting police officers. Dean broke into homes, dressed in teenage girls’ underwear, and filmed herself [sic] in their bedrooms engaging in what the court reporting coyly called “sex acts”. “Your victims,” said the judge, “undoubtedly regard you as being a dangerous man within the community and the sort of dangerous person that will give them every reason to be careful or worry when things go bump in the night.” That’s why the crimes came with an indeterminate sentence: because Dean was a sexual offender with an escalating pattern of behaviour against women.
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Now if this isn't autogynaephilia I don't know what is. And in this case autogynaephilia with a presentation suggesting that the man poses a very definite risk to women.

This information was available at the time multiple media sources were uncritically pushing the petition urging this person to be moved to a women's prison, among many vulnerable and damaged female prisoners, but that wasn't included in any of the reports. More disturbingly, the information was only available because Dean had made only a minor name change. In many cases the prohibition against "dead-naming" (referring to a trans individual by his or her original name) prevents such associations being made and allows dangerous offenders to shake off their past conviction record when being ushered into women's single-sex spaces. (The article linked in my previous post also refers to this, with the writer escaping from a large amount of debt by changing his identity in this way.)

Men are not women, even if they say they are. Men cannot become women, even if they want to be. And we should be particularly suspicious of men who say they want to do this. For every harmless transsexual like Kristina Harrison or indeed Blaire White there's an unknown number of Marie Deans just waiting to take advantage of this.

Just the other day one of the most obnoxious trans activists on twitter was picked up in an FBI sting and arrested for soliciting sexual contact with an eleven-year-old girl, and in the course of the conversation with the FBI officer revealed that he may have currently been abusing two other girls even younger than that. And this isn't the notorious JY I'm talking about but a completely different creep going by the handle of @drpizza. (Pizza reference. God could you be any more bloody obvious about it?) The account is still there, inactive, presumably because its owner is in custody.

Article here. https://glinner.ghost.io/doctor-pizza-piece/

And if one more person tells me I have to be kind to the poor marginalised men in dresses and let them undress in front of me and I have to undress in front of them or else I'm some sort of bigot who shouldn't be allowed in polite society, they can bloody well :rule10 off.


ETA: Here's another one. A prominent trans activist who was discovered to be a convicted child rapist in his past life, but who managed to leave his criminal record behind by changing his name and taking on a woman's appearance. https://womenarehuman.com/man-hides...nd-changing-name-allison-nee-dennis-woolbert/
 
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Yes, there have been some people in the thread who have called it "junk science" and "discredited". I note the author of the first article agreed that he was autogynaephilic too, although apparently presenting very differently.

The point is that by allowing any man who is prepared to say "I identify as a woman" to be treated as one, no questions asked, men such as Dean are being allowed free unchallenged entry into all women's single-sex spaces. Even prisons, where the female inmates are often damaged and vulnerable, and have no way of getting away from him.

The very men who are prepared to step forward and say "I am a woman" are precisely that population of men we need to be looking at with a very suspicious eye. Not saying "that's great, aren't you the brave and stunning one, here we'll help you by charging any woman who objects to your presence in her locker room with a hate crime."

I mean, why does anyone think this is OK? This is not a symmetrical situation. There is overwhelming evidence that men who are prepared to identlfy as women include large numbers of individuals who pose a significant risk to women's safety. The converse is not true. There is no evidence at all that I'm aware of, of women who identify as men either having a past as sex offenders or going on to become sex offenders and prey on and assault men in men's single-sex spaces. So forgive me if I'm not really listening to men who say, this is all OK ladies, the ladies with the penises don't mean you any harm.
 
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I mean, why does anyone think this is OK? This is not a symmetrical situation. There is overwhelming evidence that men who are prepared to identlfy as women include large numbers of individuals who pose a significant risk to women's safety. The converse is not true. There is no evidence at all that I'm aware of, of women who identify as men either having a past as sex offenders or going on to become sex offenders and prey on and assault men in men's single-sex spaces. So forgive me if I'm not really listening to men who say, this is all OK ladies, the ladies with the penises don't mean you any harm.
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Because men have always covered each other's butts. If they cover a woman's with anything at all, it's only a skimpy transparent bikini.
 
DragonLady said:
Because men have always covered each other's butts. If they cover a woman's with anything at all, it's only a skimpy transparent bikini.
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Actually I'd argue that it's something completely different. Stating up front that I do not at all agree that 'a woman is someone who says they're a woman', and that I'm not defending that sort of mindset, it has all the appearances to me of a gross over-correction from past prejudice, as well as some people taking advantage of said over-correction.

What, you don't want to get dirty working on your car after a hard day of playing football? FAIRY! Or you don't feel like putting on a dress and baking cookies all day? DYKE! In the past much of society has been intolerant of people from either sex who didn't fall into the narrow roles it was decided those sexes should play. Only now we're at a point where we're not simply saying it's totally cool for a man to want to do things stereo-typically associated with women, we've gone off the deep end and are at a place were you're considered intolerant if you don't see those men as actually being women.

I have no stats or surveys to back this up, so it's all based on my experience and as such I could be well off the mark, but I don't get the sense that the sorts of men who would objectify women in the traditional way (pinup calendars in the workplace, etc.) would be the same sorts who would cheer on a bio-male identifying female as being 'brave' or the like. Most likely they'd be hurling insults (or bricks). It's not frat-bros high fiving other frat-bros for their courage to come out as non-binary.

What the actual motivation is for those who applaud the non binaries without being non binary themselves I won't hazard a guess. But I doubt it comes from the same place as what drives construction workers to cat-call a woman walking past.

Doesn't make it less of a problem, just the vector is something different. Again, in my opinion only, and I'm prepared to be shown I'm wrong.
 
theprestige said:
This seems like excuse-making, rather than rational debate.
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In the context of facts posted in 70 pages of discussion, no it isn't. Women suffer far more sexual harassment and abuse at the hands of men than vice-versa. 'Welcome to our world' is fair comment. OK, it isn't analytical but then the subject has been analysed to death here.
 
I have no stats or surveys to back this up, so it's all based on my experience and as such I could be well off the mark, but I don't get the sense that the sorts of men who would objectify women in the traditional way (pinup calendars in the workplace, etc.) would be the same sorts who would cheer on a bio-male identifying female as being 'brave' or the like. Most likely they'd be hurling insults (or bricks). It's not frat-bros high fiving other frat-bros for their courage to come out as non-binary.
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I agree. I think many of them are silently applauding those who have the chutzpah to claim they're transgendered because they dream of themselves being surrounded by women who are unselfconsciously preoccupied doing womanly things.
 
GlennB said:
In the context of facts posted in 70 pages of discussion, no it isn't. Women suffer far more sexual harassment and abuse at the hands of men than vice-versa. 'Welcome to our world' is fair comment. OK, it isn't analytical but then the subject has been analysed to death here.
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I don't think it's fair at all. DL made a blatantly sexist remark, and Rolfe endorsed it. "But women have long suffered from sexism" is an excuse. It doesn't justify the remark. It signals bad faith. Instead of being supported by 70 pages of discussion, it undermine's Rolfe and DL's contribution to those 70 pages of discussion.
 
theprestige said:
I don't think it's fair at all. DL made a blatantly sexist remark, and Rolfe endorsed it. "But women have long suffered from sexism" is an excuse. It doesn't justify the remark. It signals bad faith. Instead of being supported by 70 pages of discussion, it undermine's Rolfe and DL's contribution to those 70 pages of discussion.
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Okay.

YOU answer Rolf's question:

I mean, why does anyone think this is OK? This is not a symmetrical situation. There is overwhelming evidence that men who are prepared to identlfy as women include large numbers of individuals who pose a significant risk to women's safety. The converse is not true. There is no evidence at all that I'm aware of, of women who identify as men either having a past as sex offenders or going on to become sex offenders and prey on and assault men in men's single-sex spaces. So forgive me if I'm not really listening to men who say, this is all OK ladies, the ladies with the penises don't mean you any harm.
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We already heard a few pages upstream that our safety is a "small price to pay" for giving these MEN what they want. So you explain why this clearly asymmetrical equation is somehow making everyone more equal?
 
Joe Random said:
Actually I'd argue that it's something completely different. Stating up front that I do not at all agree that 'a woman is someone who says they're a woman', and that I'm not defending that sort of mindset, it has all the appearances to me of a gross over-correction from past prejudice, as well as some people taking advantage of said over-correction.

What, you don't want to get dirty working on your car after a hard day of playing football? FAIRY! Or you don't feel like putting on a dress and baking cookies all day? DYKE! In the past much of society has been intolerant of people from either sex who didn't fall into the narrow roles it was decided those sexes should play. Only now we're at a point where we're not simply saying it's totally cool for a man to want to do things stereo-typically associated with women, we've gone off the deep end and are at a place were you're considered intolerant if you don't see those men as actually being women.

I have no stats or surveys to back this up, so it's all based on my experience and as such I could be well off the mark, but I don't get the sense that the sorts of men who would objectify women in the traditional way (pinup calendars in the workplace, etc.) would be the same sorts who would cheer on a bio-male identifying female as being 'brave' or the like. Most likely they'd be hurling insults (or bricks). It's not frat-bros high fiving other frat-bros for their courage to come out as non-binary.

What the actual motivation is for those who applaud the non binaries without being non binary themselves I won't hazard a guess. But I doubt it comes from the same place as what drives construction workers to cat-call a woman walking past.

Doesn't make it less of a problem, just the vector is something different. Again, in my opinion only, and I'm prepared to be shown I'm wrong.
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It's not an unreasonable theory, but you need to look at the nature of the trans-ally rhetoric. Even the mildest of it is scolding and judgemental of women who won't roll over and give in to the trans demands. How dare you refuse to give in to the most marginalised and oppressed people who have ever existed! (These people actually mainly being middle-class white men by the way!)

Then you get to the "die terf scum" stuff, the baby-pink baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire, the rape threats and so on. Even shown these, the wokebro contingent still continue to support the trans and scold the women, usually on the grounds that the risk to women is worth it to keep trans people happy and anyway they were provoked into it.

I've seen vanishingly few men start off defending trans rights and then stop and think, wait a minute, women have rights too, maybe there's more than one side to this. Would that it happened!
 
DragonLady said:
Okay.
YOU answer Rolf's question:
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Rolfe said:
I mean, why does anyone think this is OK? This is not a symmetrical situation. There is overwhelming evidence that men who are prepared to identlfy as women include large numbers of individuals who pose a significant risk to women's safety. The converse is not true. There is no evidence at all that I'm aware of, of women who identify as men either having a past as sex offenders or going on to become sex offenders and prey on and assault men in men's single-sex spaces. So forgive me if I'm not really listening to men who say, this is all OK ladies, the ladies with the penises don't mean you any harm.
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Allow me;

some see this as merely a part of a wide-ranging, if not all-encompassing 'social engineeing'/brainwashing project, or more correctly a psy-war, a campaign of social sabotage, of social destruction, entailng the complete undermining and dismantling of every last western norm, social more, taboo, inhibition. No more boys and girls, or men and women, no more parents (the state will take care of that, thank you very much.

The strategy is simply to completely pathologise 'masculinity' and to so thoroughly demoralise and confuse the males who would under any other circumstances defend their culture and people - 'take up arms' - if they were able to see this aggression, and identify the aggressor.
 
IsThisTheLife said:
Allow me;

some see this as merely a part of a wide-ranging, if not all-encompassing 'social engineeing'/brainwashing project, or more correctly a psy-war, a campaign of social sabotage, of social destruction, entailng the complete undermining and dismantling of every last western norm, social more, taboo, inhibition. No more boys and girls, or men and women, no more parents (the state will take care of that, thank you very much.

The strategy is simply to completely pathologise 'masculinity' and to so thoroughly demoralise and confuse the males who would under any other circumstances defend their culture and people - 'take up arms' - if they were able to see this aggression, and identify the aggressor.
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I don't know if I can accept the notion such a conspiracy is intentional, but I am forced to admit that is what I see as the end result if no one starts drawing some bright lines very soon.

I'm seeing headlines about little boys dressed in drag dancing for money. How in hell can anyone see that as a step toward making life anything but "equally miserable" for all?
 
IsThisTheLife said:
Allow me;

some see this as merely a part of a wide-ranging, if not all-encompassing 'social engineeing'/brainwashing project, or more correctly a psy-war, a campaign of social sabotage, of social destruction, entailng the complete undermining and dismantling of every last western norm, social more, taboo, inhibition. No more boys and girls, or men and women, no more parents (the state will take care of that, thank you very much.

The strategy is simply to completely pathologise 'masculinity' and to so thoroughly demoralise and confuse the males who would under any other circumstances defend their culture and people - 'take up arms' - if they were able to see this aggression, and identify the aggressor.
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"Masculinity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men. As a social construct, it is distinct from the definition of the male biological sex. " wiki. As a social construct, it is mutable

In our world, many of the attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men are already pathological.
 
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