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Trans Women are not Women

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Ron_Tomkins said:
The ironic thing is that Trans Women are actually men speaking in the name of women. If there's anyone who women should feel outraged at, is them. It's like me deciding I'm a woman, putting on a dress and being like "Yeah, preach it sister! Those damn men think they know better than us women what being a woman is like!" :D
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And of course transmen don't exist and as such their statements are also ignored.
 
Roboramma said:
I recently started dating someone new. Whenever she goes out in the street she wears a hat and a mask (the masks used to be common here when the air was bad). I asked her if she wears the mask because she’s worried about air pollution. Her reply “No, it’s because I’m too good looking.” I laughed. She says, “No, really, if I don’t wear it men stare at me and even walk up to me like this:” she walk up to me to within several inches of my face staring at me “actually I don’t like to go out at night, it’s very dangerous for me.

My only point is that life as a woman is very different from my experience. Things I wouldn’t even consider can be their every day life.
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And I have heard from transwomen the weirdness of being catcalled. It is "I don't like the behavior, but like that I am being endorsed as a woman". Rather conflicted feelings.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Their ruling was that all athletes needed to have testosterone below a certain level. There was nothing about intersex or trans conditions in it.

"That ruling upheld regulations that will require some female track athletes with naturally-elevated testosterone levels to lower those levels with drugs or surgery, if they want to compete in certain women's events on the international stage."

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/31/728400819/i-am-a-woman-track-star-caster-semenya-continues-her-fight-to-compete-as-a-femal

Now is having an unusually high testosterone level enough to count as a DSD all on it's own? I see that as quite likely.
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The answer is right there in the article you linked to, if you read carefully. It also has a link to the ruling itself.

Semenya, 28, is a two-time gold medalist in the 800 meter event. She is asking the Swiss Federal Supreme Court to throw out a ruling issued earlier this month by the Court of Arbitration for Sport, or CAS, which is based in Lausanne.

That ruling upheld regulations that will require some female track athletes with naturally-elevated testosterone levels to lower those levels with drugs or surgery, if they want to compete in certain women's events on the international stage.
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The IAAF regulations apply to certain athletes with what are known as Differences of Sex Development, or DSDs, which means they were born with anatomy that doesn't neatly fit into the binary, male or female categories. These individuals are also known as intersex.
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Caster Semenya was raised as a female and is legally female. She's fighting rules that affect DSD athletes who have what are typically male, XY chromosomes; who were born with internal testes; and have testosterone levels higher than the typical female range.
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These are rules that only apply to athletes with (male) XY chromosomes who want to compete as women. It's all there in the NPR article, you just need to read to the end. If you want, click the link and read the ruling itself.
 
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Puppycow said:
The answer is right there in the article you linked to, if you read carefully. It also has a link to the ruling itself.


These are rules that only apply to athletes with (male) XY chromosomes who want to compete as women. It's all there in the NPR article, you just need to read to the end. If you want, click the link and read the ruling itself.
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Except that is doesn't and doesn't say she is intersex.

""You can at the same time feel incredible compassion toward Semenya and DSD athletes and say that 'hey, what's happening isn't right'. But at the same time, you can say we protect the women's division of sport for a reason and we have to decide somewhere where we want to divide that.""

Not the lack of the word other. The only trait we can say definitively that she has is high testosterone. And again is that enough by itself to qualify as a "Differences of Sex Development"? I could see the argument that yes it does.

No where is there any supported evidence that she is not XX.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Their ruling was that all athletes needed to have testosterone below a certain level.
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No it was not.

Court of Arbitration for Sport said:
In March/April 2018, the IAAF cancelled its “Hyperandrogenism Regulations”, which had been primarily challenged by the Indian athlete Dutee Chand, and replaced them with the DSD Regulations establishing new requirements governing the eligibility of women with DSD for the female classification in race events from 400m to 1 mile (the “Restricted Events”) at international athletics competitions. The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with “46 XY DSD” – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes. Accordingly, individuals with XX chromosomes are not subject to any restrictions or eligibility conditions under the DSD Regulations.
https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf
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There was nothing about intersex or trans conditions in it.
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"Trans" is a red herring (which Rolfe pointed out) since Semenya has never identified as male and then transitioned. Also whether "46XY DSD" is deemed "male bodied" or "intersex" is not that important, it is not biologically female, and XX genotypes (biological females) are not required to medically reduce their testosterone concentration even if it is unusually high

As noted above, a lot of reporting is not accurate on this but the CAS certainly is.
 
ponderingturtle said:
No where is there any supported evidence that she is not XX.
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Since she is asking for the DSD regulation to be voided, and the CAS decided not to do that, and since Semenya is required to antiandrogenise due to the regulation, it can be deduced that it is common knowledge between all parties that she is XY.

I don't see how any other interpretation can be made. I do agree that the CAS media release is not saying "Caster Semenya is XY" explicitly.
 
ponderingturtle said:
No where is there any supported evidence that she is not XX.
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True. We do not know for a fact that the regulation she contested (which only applies to people with XY chromosomes) applies to her.

We only know that she did contest it and the resulting ruling rejected her request for the regulation to be declared invalid and void.

The back and forth argument here is only over whether it's reasonable or not to infer that the rule change she contested is one which will affect her.
 
Transgender woman who previously competed in the men's division wins women's national title in the 400-meter hurdles at NCAA championship

Daily Mail said:
A transgender woman who previously competed as a man has become a National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) track champion.

CeCe Telfer clinched the women's 400-meter hurdles national title at the 2019 NCAA Division II Outdoor Track & Field Championships for Franklin Pierce University on May 25.

Her triumph has been surrounded by controversy as many in the running world express concerns that transgender athletes competing in women's sports may have an unfair advantage.

Telfer completed the course with a stunning time of 57.53s, with the second place opponent trailing far behind with a score of 59.21s. She also earned All-American First Team honors with a fifth-place finish in the 100m hurdles earlier in the day...

...Telfer was born and raised as Craig and competed on the men's team at Franklin Pierce University in New Hampshire from 2016 to 2018, even though she personally identified as a woman.

In the 2016-2017 season, Telfer was not even in the top 200 male athletes in her event.

Her last competition as Craig was in January 2018, when she finished eighth in a field of nine in the Men's 400 meters at the Middlebury Winter Classic in Vermont.

After that race Telfer resigned from the men's team and underwent gender re-assignment surgery before joining the women's team that October...
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-national-title-NCAA-track-championship.html
 

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ponderingturtle said:
Except that is doesn't and doesn't say she is intersex.

""You can at the same time feel incredible compassion toward Semenya and DSD athletes and say that 'hey, what's happening isn't right'. But at the same time, you can say we protect the women's division of sport for a reason and we have to decide somewhere where we want to divide that.""

Not the lack of the word other. The only trait we can say definitively that she has is high testosterone. And again is that enough by itself to qualify as a "Differences of Sex Development"? I could see the argument that yes it does.

No where is there any supported evidence that she is not XX.
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You clearly are not reading the actual decision. Let me quote some pertinent parts, for your edification:

"In March/April 2018, the IAAF cancelled its “Hyperandrogenism Regulations”, which had been primarily challenged by the Indian athlete Dutee Chand, and replaced them with the DSD Regulations establishing new requirements governing the eligibility of women with DSD for the female classification in race events from 400m to 1 mile (the “Restricted Events”) at international athletics competitions. The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with “46 XY DSD” – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes. Accordingly, individuals with XX chromosomes are not subject to any restrictions or eligibility conditions under the DSD Regulations.

Athletes with 46 XY DSD have testosterone levels well into the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L; normal female range being below 2 nmol/L). The DSD Regulations require athletes with 46 XY DSD with a natural testosterone level over 5 nmol/L, and who experience a “material androgenizing effect”
from that enhanced testosterone level, to reduce their natural testosterone level to below 5 nmol/L, and to maintain that reduced level for a continuous period of at least six months in order to be eligible to compete in a Restricted Event. Such reduction can be achieved, according to the IAAF evidence,
by the use of normal oral contraceptives."

It goes further: "By majority, the CAS Panel has dismissed the requests for arbitration considering that the Claimants were unable to establish that the DSD Regulations were “invalid”. The Panel found that the DSD Regulations are discriminatory but the majority of the Panel found that, on the basis of the evidence submitted by the parties, such discrimination is a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of achieving the IAAF’s aim of preserving the integrity of female athletics in the Restricted Events.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Sure you can. It is like expecting them to be ok with the idea of same sex relationships or that people with different skin color can go to their school. It is all about what they are used to and expect.

This is all cultural so pushing for a change in the culture is exactly what this is about.
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STOP WITH YOUR ******* STRAW MEN.

I will not abide any BS parallels drawn between my hesitation at desegregated changing spaces and homophobia toward gay couples. How bloody dare you, sir.

I want to know why you think completely desegregated changing spaces would be a good thing, and who it would benefit. Remember, I already said I'm not talking about trans people. I am talking about regular old men and women all changing in the same space, all ages. Who will this benefit? Why should I want it?

A better question might be, why am i bothering asking? Your answer will be an insulting straw man.

I'm out of here. I have so much better things to do. Everybody change in Central Park, what do I care.
 
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Crawtator said:
You clearly are not reading the actual decision. Let me quote some pertinent parts, for your edification:

<pertinent parts snip>
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The missing part, though it's a narrow point, is that the ruling does not say whether the new rule Semenya contested actually affects Semenya.
 
isissxn said:
STOP WITH YOUR ******* STRAW MEN.

I will not abide any BS parallels drawn between my hesitation at desegregated changing spaces and homophobia toward gay couples. How bloody dare you, sir.
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Because there are parralells, the fears that drove swimming pools to be a major point of the civil rights movement after all, and crop up to this day.

And won't someone think of the children has been a popular argument against all the LGBT+ community.
I want to know why you think completely desegregated changing spaces would be a good thing, and who it would benefit. Remember, I already said I'm not talking about trans people. I am talking about regular old men and women all changing in the same space, all ages. Who will this benefit? Why should I want it?
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In that case it is mostly non binary and not forcing everyone into a binary choice.
 
Well, your point stands, but logically, we can think this through. The decision says, "Accordingly, individuals with XX chromosomes are not subject to any restrictions or eligibility conditions under the DSD Regulations." This decision would only affect "“46 XY DSD” – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes." So, if Semenya, is XX, this ruling has no effect on her and she can keep her natural testosterone levels at any level she pleases. But, if she suffers from this particular condition, she has to comply with the ruling.

Now, I think we all know what this means about her, but I don't think it would be necessary to point out that she suffers from this, since it is her private medical information. However, Semenya made herself an open target by challenging this rule in the first place. Whether that is a good or bad thing is a very different discussion. But why would she challenge the rule in the first place if she was simply XX? It would seem like a very weird thing to do...
 
That's the second time someone has framed me musing on my own adolescence as "won't somebody think of the children." This is plain dishonest, rotten, and discounting of what people are actually saying. It is so slimy what you're doing right now, responding to perfectly reasonable concerns about radical social shakeups that (in my case) DON'T EVEN INCLUDE TRANS PEOPLE, as though they represent bigotry! My whole entire point is, if trans people are allowed to use whichever room they want, why are people suddenly pushing for a step even further where everything is COMPLETELY desegregated? Oh, what a transphobic question! My stars, I should be ridden out on a rail.

YOU ARE LYING.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
The missing part, though it's a narrow point, is that the ruling does not say whether the new rule Semenya contested actually affects Semenya.
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It's not even a point.

Why contest a rule that does not affect her?

If the rule does not affect her why is she being drugged by the IAAF in her own words?

If XX genotype athletes in international women's 400m - 1 mile are not required to lower testosterone concentration and she is XX, why is she being drugged by the IAAF in her own words?

Her medical privacy has been voluntarily dropped by her challenging the rules in this court.
 
The Atheist said:
This subject has been brought to a head in NZ by the inclusion of a trans woman in our weightlifting teams for the Commonwealth Games. Link: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opini...urel-hubbard-carrying-the-weight-of-the-world

She competed as a bloke until a few years ago when it occurred to him that under new rules he could compete as a shiela and actually win something he was actually a woman trapped in a man's body, despite having male DNA.

In these inclusionary times I find it interesting that the main group of people who openly agree with the thread title are Germaine Greer and other TERFs. (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists) How appropriate that the very women who empowered women in the '60s are now, in their 60s, disempowering women.

I have no problem with trans women and even worked on a trans-positive hiring strategy with a couple of large companies, but I cannot and will not accept that they are the same as women. They are most welcome to use women's bathrooms, go to women's jails and changing rooms, but they're not actually women, and can see why Greer and others feel the same.

They have a choice.

No, I'm not saying gender/sexuality is a choice, but it certainly can be, as the significant - but small - sample of trans reversals displays.
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It isn't fair for a trans woman to compete in athletic competition with a natural born woman. The trans women have the testosterone to build a greater muscle mass and it just isn't fair to real women.
 
Roboramma said:
Yeah, I can see how that would be weird, both unpleasant and yet validating.
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Yeah. It’s also a common feeling among women who are insecure about their appearance in general. The whole conflicted feeling of ‘oh so I’m not even good enough to get harassed’ if they never get catcalled where other women do. It’s not like you want to get harassed but it’s a kind of validation if you’re short on that.
 
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