A live Flat Earth debate hosted by SciDanMan

theprestige said:
How melodramatic!

I'm still not convinced that flat-eartherism is a problem that needs solving.
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Compared to creationism, global warming, religions and other absurdities I'd agree. Nevertheless, falsehoods and creeping willful ignorance should not be treated as if it is ok.
 
theprestige said:
I disagree on three counts.

First, I don't think very many people are "falling for" it at all. I think for most people, it's a pose they adopt for personal amusement, or as a result of some other dissatisfaction already present in their lives. I think very few people are actually believing the Earth is flat.

Second, so what if people believe the Earth is flat? For almost everybody, almost all the time, the Earth *is* flat, in every practical way. Even the parts of your daily life that really do depend on the Earth being round, like GPS on your phone, work whether you believe them or not. About the only people for whom the nonsense of a flat Earth needs to be exposed are space mission planners, and they already know the truth anyway. As nonsense goes, the flat earth is a good example of nonsense that doesn't really need to be exposed at all.

Third, it's trivial to expose, for anyone who actually wants to have their mind changed. But flat-earthers don't want their minds changed. You're trying to solve a problem of information, but the real problem is one of choice. You're talking about it as though we have to expose a great lie for the good of all mankind. But I think you're actually just trying to put a stop to a game of silly buggers that you don't approve of. Let it go, is my advice. It's not actually all that important, and the people you're trying to stop from having fun aren't interested in quitting their game on your account anyway.
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You disagree, ok. But we debated creationists since Darwin was alive. How many debate pages so far with Gingervytes or Pixie of Key or Bjarne? Why have such a forum at all if not to engage those that spread falsehoods? Why participate at all on a forum that was originally set up to present the skeptical position? When we debate we aren't necessarily trying to change the mind of someone. What we are doing is speaking to the fencesitters. I'm sure you know that. So, are you here to hear yourself just argue for its own sake? I hope not.
You know this too that the best thing about the interwebs is it allows good ideas to flourish. The worst thing about the interwebs is it allows bad ideas to flourish - faster. It's as true now as it was during Samuel Clemens time.
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
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An relavant article.
The internet, as we are all patently aware by this point, is awash with some incredible nonsense. In recent years, some of that nonsense has managed to gain a disturbing amount of traction: the anti-vaxxer movement, a religious belief in alternative medicine, the flat Earth theory, and even astrology have all experienced a tremendous surge of interest and support in online spheres.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-is-flat-and-we-should-listen-to-anti-vaxxers
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theprestige said:
How do you get consensus about a fact, except through debate?

Hell, our whole criminal justice system is based on the premise that facts are discovered through formal debate. Would you walk into a courtroom and tell the judge that the defense's argument is pointless, because the accused's guilt is not a matter for debate, it's a matter of fact?
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Captain_Swoop said:
Criminal justice is not science.

Direct observation shows us that the earth is not flat.

You are using exactly the same ******** as the Flerfers themselves.

go to Dover, see France from the cliff top. Go to the beach and don't see France.
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Exactly!

Just how absurd does something have to be for us to ignore those making outlandish claims. Is it necessary to engage in serious debate with someone claiming the moon is made of green cheese?
 
Thor 2 said:
Exactly!

Just how absurd does something have to be for us to ignore those making outlandish claims. Is it necessary to engage in serious debate with someone claiming the moon is made of green cheese?
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For those that want to know how to treat flat earthers and other such people a very good answer is to laugh at them and treat their views with contempt.
 
theprestige said:
How melodramatic!

I'm still not convinced that flat-eartherism is a problem that needs solving.
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Here's the problem: The fact is that you are not entitled to your opinion if it is BS. If you run round in public claiming the world is flat you deserve to be ridiculed and harassed for your CHOSEN STUPIDITY.

Remember that people were burned at the stake for daring to say the earth was round, and that the sun was the center of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it.

18 Astronauts and Cosmonauts during space-flight related accidents, and the crew of Apollo 1 died on the launch pad during a test, and I'm not counting the test pilots mankind has lost testing airframes that put us into space. Some intellectual hillbilly dumb enough to believe that the earth is flat, and that space travel is a lie needs to ridden into the ground until he goes back to whatever rock he's crawled out from under, and shuts his pie hole.

Flat Eartherism, like ant-vaccers, is recent trend that had taken root thanks to the internet, and like any parasitic intrusion it needs to be confronted.

Every time.
 
theprestige said:
Third, it's trivial to expose, for anyone who actually wants to have their mind changed. But flat-earthers don't want their minds changed.
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The Netflix documentary Behind The Curve does a great job of demonstrating this. Flat-earthers have gotten the money together to perform a series of experiments. They spent $20,000 on a laser gyroscope. If the earth were round, it would move by about 15 degrees an hour; if flat, not at all. Sure enough, the gyroscope moved 15 degrees. Rather than accept this evidence, they tried enclosing it in a glass case to stop the cosmic rays. It still moved 15 degrees. Last they said, they were trying to build a quartz case or something.

They also came up with a much cheeper experiment. They found a 3 mile stretch of waterway and placed boards with holes cut in them exactly 8 feet above the water mark. If the earth were flat, then a light shined through the first board would be visible through the hole in the last board 3 miles away. Sure enough, it wasn't. Over the radio, they asked the guy to hold the light as high as he could (several feet above the intended target). When he did that, they could see it.

So, flat-earthers have conducted experiments that were consistent with a globe and inconsistent with a flat plane. And not one of them changed their beliefs. They simply stated that their experimental design must be wrong and went on believing.

No amount of debate or evidence can sway any of them. You cannot, to borrow an expression, reason someone out of a belief he wasn't reasoned into.
 
Axxman300 said:
Here's the problem: The fact is that you are not entitled to your opinion if it is BS. If you run round in public claiming the world is flat you deserve to be ridiculed and harassed for your CHOSEN STUPIDITY.
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I disagree.

Remember that people were burned at the stake for daring to say the earth was round, and that the sun was the center of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it.
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I don't remember any such thing. I doubt you do, either.

18 Astronauts and Cosmonauts during space-flight related accidents, and the crew of Apollo 1 died on the launch pad during a test, and I'm not counting the test pilots mankind has lost testing airframes that put us into space. Some intellectual hillbilly dumb enough to believe that the earth is flat, and that space travel is a lie needs to ridden into the ground until he goes back to whatever rock he's crawled out from under, and shuts his pie hole.
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I disagree. I think you are investing way more outrage in this than it actually deserves. Your vehement appeal to emotion is not a big selling point for me.

Flat Eartherism, like ant-vaccers, is recent trend that had taken root thanks to the internet, and like any parasitic intrusion it needs to be confronted.
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I disagree. Flat Eartherism is not actually dangerous. Just offensive (to some).

Every time.
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I disagree. I think that this sort of thing almost never needs to be confronted. Certainly not with the degree of outrage you are proposing. You've been triggered badly by this issue, and I don't think that's a rational response.
 
The flat Earth nonsense and other woo is quite personal for me because my sister is afflicted with this mindset. I get the very real impression that for her it's beyond just a "wanting to believe" stage.

This by itself puts me in the camp of desiring to confront such claptrap. And knowing how anti-intellectualism is generally on the rise only boosts my worry about the potential for a pervasive dumbing down of society and the way this can infect policy makers. I mean, just look at the current result of widespread dumb****ery in the US, with an administration headed by a witless ignoramus and attracting more of the same.
 
Sherman Bay said:
My only hope is that a flat earther isn't put in charge of calculating the path of the ISS, the coordinates for a telescope, or even a southern airline route.
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...or designing GPS related systems, or calculating "keyhole" orbits for diverting giant meteors heading towards us, or produce an accurate app charting where the Sun is located.... There's a LOT of things flat Earthers can't do.

I, for one, hope they start trying to do the things ONLY THEY can do: Make a journey to the underside of the planet, for example. They currently seem to lack ambition in that direction, though.
 
Lurch said:
The flat Earth nonsense and other woo is quite personal for me because my sister is afflicted with this mindset. I get the very real impression that for her it's beyond just a "wanting to believe" stage.
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I have a couple of family members who also believe some kooky things or things I consider to be irrational. My mother has a lot of "New Age-y" beliefs, like homeopathy, astrology, etc. My brother is a devout Christian. While these are both (to me) irrational, they both otherwise seem to be healthy, normal, intelligent people with successful lives.

Out of curiosity, do you think this mindset of your sister's (such as belief in flat Earth nonsense) actually harms her and prevents her from having an otherwise happy, successful, well-adjusted life?

BTW, I've never had any success in trying to argue against either of their belief systems, and I learned that it is better to not even try because I cannot bring them around to seeing things the way I do. So as long as they don't bring it up first, I won't bring it up first, either.
 
Thor 2 said:
Exactly!

Just how absurd does something have to be for us to ignore those making outlandish claims. Is it necessary to engage in serious debate with someone claiming the moon is made of green cheese?
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If there is a sudden upswing in the numbers of green-cheesers spamming videos on YouTube and social media resulting in a flood of green-cheeserism in the public consciousness, perhaps it might be time to take this particular irrationality seriously.
 
Wowbagger said:
I, for one, hope they start trying to do the things ONLY THEY can do: Make a journey to the underside of the planet, for example. They currently seem to lack ambition in that direction, though.
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Go over the edge in a capsule to check the sex of the turtle?
 
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