The Trump Presidency 14

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Norman Alexander said:
I was talking about leaving the USA, not entry. I've left the USA many times in the last 40 years, and have always had to go through US Border Control. My observation is that US citizens were subject to passport checks just like us "aliens". Admittedly this was at airports.
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That all depends on the means of exit as you indicted in an airport. You will encounter as much in specific mass trans such as airplanes and I am pretty sure on cruise liners.

When you cross the border going into Mexico or Canada, no American law enforcement will typically stop you and ask for papers when leaving, only when entering. Likewise, you can go rent a boat and leave the U.S. and it's waters at your leisure with no border enforcement at all.
 
lomiller said:
Simply due to practical considerations you can’t leave the US without a passport because the other country won’t let you in.

Pre 9/11 you could travel between Canada the US and Mexico with just a driver’s licence but once a passport was required (and before other ID forms were implemented) Americans would be blocked at the border simply to prevent issues with them getting back into the US.
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Sure, this has been largely a discussion of the conceptual freedom of exit. The limitations on entry into other countries is a separate hypothetical, if very practical, issue. The question is if one has the right to leave the USA; the right to enter another country is of course between the person and the country of entrance. For the most part this appears to be so the host country can ensure you can be returned to the USA if you overstayed your visit. Some even have required a bond or other financial evidence that you can be made to pay for your return ticket if they wish to ship you back.

However there are ways to leave the USA without needing to enter another country. For example if one leaves on an extended small boat trip with no country of arrival indicated. In fact I suspect one can easily leave in this circumstance without a passport (perhaps not legally but it is routine to leave the dock without filing any official indication of one's intentions). I presume there are also ways that one might find oneself in a narrow zone between USA exit and customs/immigration control of the other country. Airlines have made this much more difficult at airports but I can envision some circumstances for auto or foot traffic. Not a long term or happy place to be, but this is theoretical, right?
 
Giordano said:
In looking this up I found that the answer of whether one can LEAVE the US legally without a passport is a little complicated:

1. There is no question that in almost cases one needs a passport to ENTER or RE-ENTER the USA. However there are options here if one loses ones passport, and one can return from Mexico and Canada using a USA Enhanced Driver's License, Pass card, or certain other ID.

2. See #1 also for LEAVING the US to visit these countries.

3. More generally one is currently required by law to have a valid passport to LEAVE the USA, but in practice controls are much tighter at airports than at drive throughs/walk-throughs. Currently this requirement is supposedly most focused on preventing people who are criminal fugitives, out on bail, or have IRS tax issues from leaving. However it has been and still is used politically by which the USA government has confiscated the passports of citizens only suspected of a link to terrorism but never charged, and for purely political reasons apparently to prevent certain highly visible politicly active citizens from spreading their ideas abroad.
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Cite your sources. You need a passport to board a plane from the U.S. to a foreign country. That's an air travel restriction. You don't need a passport to leave the U.S. by vehicle, boat or on foot, but you will need a document to enter another country and to return to the U.S.
 
Bob001 said:
His claim seemed to be that you always need a passport to leave the U.S. I'm sure that's not right. As to coming home without one, you'll have to jump through some hoops. Singing "Yankee Doodle" won't be enough.
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You do now but not so long ago you didn't need a passport to go to Canada or Mexico.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Of course. But this is not official US law at all. It can be conveniently ignored whenever required.
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Being denied the documents is not the same as being denied the right to leave. I think you are conflating those two things.

In addition, it's the country you are entering that may deny you entry, not the one you are leaving.
 
Minoosh said:
I've walked in to Mexico dozens of times. As far as I can tell no one took any notice at all. But when I wanted to board a passenger train down to Mexico City I needed to go through a customs process. There was a frontera (border) zone of I think 15 miles where passports and visas weren't necessary. After that, presumably I'd be in trouble if I was found farther south without the right stamp or paperwork.

No one from the U.S. ever questioned me leaving, and I'm not sure that the fact you're leaving the country is actually recorded anywhere.

I wonder if someone from Mexico or Central America (less likely) would routinely be approved for tourist visas or a family visit. Maybe officials check for clear signs that the stay is temporary.
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They don't always ask when you walk across the border. But technically you need a passport.
 
Bob001 said:
Cite your sources. You need a passport to board a plane from the U.S. to a foreign country. That's an air travel restriction. You don't need a passport to leave the U.S. by vehicle, boat or on foot, but you will need a document to enter another country and to return to the U.S.
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Frankly I googled and looked at some 15 or so pages that seemed fairly current. I did not keep a running list of those I used to abstract this information but remember I first held the opposite position, yours, that one could easily leave the USA without a passport. So I have no reason to make this up. I think I posted a pretty balanced account of my findings. If you wish just try it yourself.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
They don't always ask when you walk across the border. But technically you need a passport.
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Exactly: what is legal (you generally need a passport with the exceptions I noted upthread) vs what one can do in practice are not the same. The tighter restrictions are on return, but even here one can sometimes bypass the official rules.
 
Giordano said:
Frankly I googled and looked at some 15 or so pages that seemed fairly current. I did not keep a running list of those I used to abstract this information but remember I first held the opposite position, yours, that one could easily leave the USA without a passport. So I have no reason to make this up. I think I posted a pretty balanced account of my findings. If you wish just try it yourself.
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IMO your original post on the subject was pretty much on target. Mexico can’t just stop people from leaving the country. People don’t get stopped leaving a country they get blocked by the authorities of the country they are trying to enter.

Air travel is a small exception, but not really. In that case people are not being prohibited for flying not leaving the country. The prohibition on flying in this case isn’t there to keep them from leaving the country but to keep them from burdening the air travel system by entering legal limbo where they can’t formally enter any country at all.
 
Belz... said:
Yeah, not your best work. 2/10 for trolling.
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Don't know that I would necessarily consider posting that opinion piece as "trolling".

The opinion of the author seems to be that Trump Is no different from any other power-seeking person in what they seek, and is simply more transparent in seeking it.

That opinion seems to be shared by many Trumpsters. Seems relavent to the thread.
 
Distracted1 said:
Don't know that I would necessarily consider posting that opinion piece as "trolling".

The opinion of the author seems to be that Trump Is no different from any other power-seeking person in what they seek, and is simply more transparent in seeking it.

That opinion seems to be shared by many Trumpsters. Seems relavent to the thread.
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IIRC, that particular author is a well known conspiracy theorist. I wouldn't trust her views much.
 
lomiller said:
IMO your original post on the subject was pretty much on target. Mexico can’t just stop people from leaving the country. People don’t get stopped leaving a country they get blocked by the authorities of the country they are trying to enter.

Air travel is a small exception, but not really. In that case people are not being prohibited for flying not leaving the country. The prohibition on flying in this case isn’t there to keep them from leaving the country but to keep them from burdening the air travel system by entering legal limbo where they can’t formally enter any country at all.
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I do still agree with the concept that one of the core human rights is the freedom to leave a country if you no longer wish to live there. Free countries observe this right for the most part. Despite the limitations the USA has imposed via the passport requirement (fugitives, people on bond, IRS issues, some much more questionable calls), for the most part the vast vast majority of USA citizens still have the right to leave if they wish. Finding a country to take them is harder but it is between them and their targeted country. I would expect the same of Mexico as I indicated in my first post on this subject. It is wrong to expect them to block this right of their citizens. For practical purposes it is best to coordinate this right of departure with the immigration system of their targeted country (most often the USA) as much as possible, but ultimately Mexico should not prevent the right of their citizens to leave whatever the limitations USA imposes on their ability to enter.
 
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