The Trump Presidency 14

[Checkmite]

OMG! Could he be anymore sick than that?

I'm putting this in the mentally ill thread.

Here's a source, if you want one. Shortly afterward the White House's PR team released a statement online to the effect that Trump had stopped at the church to "pray for the Virginia Beach victims"; but the recounting of the actual request and Trump's visit by those who were actually present for it makes little mention of Virginia Beach; and by "little" I mean none whatsoever.

ETA: On the church's own website is a statement by the pastor defending his decision to fill Trump's prayer request; at the bottom of the page is the full video (about 5 minutes long) of the prayer; watch it and decide for yourself if it was a prayer for the Virginia Beach victims and community.

 

[Bob001]

I'm not sure what Norman's on about, but I've returned to the US without ID. You need a date and place of birth, and the right accent.

Of course that was a long time ago and things have changed. But if you're a citizen and you show up at the border, you will get in.

His claim seemed to be that you always need a passport to leave the U.S. I'm sure that's not right. As to coming home without one, you'll have to jump through some hoops. Singing "Yankee Doodle" won't be enough.

 

[Aridas]

Random news time. Every vote matters!

San Antonio's 97-year old former Mayor and political icon Lila Cockrell was turned away from the polling place during the city's Mayoral runoff election last week for lack of the type of ID now required to vote in the Lone Star State. Cockrell was the city's 4-term mayor and its first female chief executive in a city where she is known by all, regarded as a bit of a legend, and even has buildings named after her. But, last week, despite showing her voter registration ID card at the polls -- which, until SCOTUS gutted much of the Voting Rights Act -- used to be enough to vote in Texas -- she was turned away. It's not the first time Texas has made it incredibly difficult for nonagenarian WWII veterans (like Cockrell) and both political icons and non-icons alike to cast a vote under purposely disenfranchising, unconstitutional polling place Photo ID restrictions. Sadly there are more than 600,000 legally registered Texans who also do not possess the very specific type of ID now required to vote in the state;

Oh, wait. Electoral integrity is something that Republican leaders tend to hate in practice these days.

Surprise inspection finds 900 people crammed into Border Patrol facility meant to detain 125

A surprise visit to a number of Border Patrol facilities by the Department of Homeland Security inspector general uncovered unhygienic conditions and "dangerous overcrowding" that forced some migrants to stand on toilets in order to try to breathe, an explosive report from the government watchdog states. In one El Paso, Texas, facility, investigators found "standing room only conditions,” where as many as 900 people were crammed into a facility meant to hold 125 people.

Conditions were unbearable for many. At the El Paso Del Norte Processing Center (PDT), investigators said they “observed detainees standing on toilets in the cells to make room and gain breathing space,” the report said, “thus limiting access to the toilets.” One picture in the report showed adult women nearly stacked on top of one other in one cell. This overcrowding was also having a direct impact on the health and well-being of detainees, the report continued.

The Trump Administration. Cruel and unusual.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Nope.
The United States of America is a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights incorporates this right into treaty law:

(1) Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.
(2) Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.
(3) The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.
(4) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.

The ICCPR entered into force for the initial ratifying states on 23 March 1976​

Of course. But this is not official US law at all. It can be conveniently ignored whenever required.

 

[Minoosh]

I don't think that's right. You need a passport to board a plane from the U.S. to a foreign country. But if you want to drive or catch a bus across the Canadian or Mexican border, or just walk, the foreign authorities won't let you in without a passport or passport card, and you'll have a hard time coming home without one, but U.S. authorities won't stop you.

I've walked in to Mexico dozens of times. As far as I can tell no one took any notice at all. But when I wanted to board a passenger train down to Mexico City I needed to go through a customs process. There was a frontera (border) zone of I think 15 miles where passports and visas weren't necessary. After that, presumably I'd be in trouble if I was found farther south without the right stamp or paperwork.

No one from the U.S. ever questioned me leaving, and I'm not sure that the fact you're leaving the country is actually recorded anywhere.

I wonder if someone from Mexico or Central America (less likely) would routinely be approved for tourist visas or a family visit. Maybe officials check for clear signs that the stay is temporary.

 

[Norman Alexander]

I'm not sure what Norman's on about, but I've returned to the US without ID. You need a date and place of birth, and the right accent.

Of course that was a long time ago and things have changed. But if you're a citizen and you show up at the border, you will get in.

If you are a citizen with brown skin and a Hispanic accent, expect a different welcome and entry criteria.

I was talking about leaving the USA, not entry. I've left the USA many times in the last 40 years, and have always had to go through US Border Control. My observation is that US citizens were subject to passport checks just like us "aliens". Admittedly this was at airports.

However I've also seen those dreadfully silly TV shows about border crossings where the dum-dums forget their passport when driving from Seattle up to Vancouver to visit grandma, and get themselves in all sorts of trouble trying to convince the officers they are actually coming back. Or some other trivial restriction. Assuming this isn't scripted, I do take it that exit passport checks are a thing.

 

[Norman Alexander]

But they must have a valid reason for doing so. "Just because some petty bureaucrat wan't to act like a dick and confiscate your passport" is not a valid reason

Dunno. I get the impression that sometimes it is...

 

[Norman Alexander]

His claim seemed to be that you always need a passport to leave the U.S. I'm sure that's not right. As to coming home without one, you'll have to jump through some hoops. Singing "Yankee Doodle" won't be enough.

And maybe it's not who you know, it's who knows you.

I make no claim to be the expert on this, of course. Don't we have people experienced in US border control affairs on the forum?

 

[Norman Alexander]

I've walked in to Mexico dozens of times. As far as I can tell no one took any notice at all. But when I wanted to board a passenger train down to Mexico City I needed to go through a customs process. There was a frontera (border) zone of I think 15 miles where passports and visas weren't necessary. After that, presumably I'd be in trouble if I was found farther south without the right stamp or paperwork.

No one from the U.S. ever questioned me leaving, and I'm not sure that the fact you're leaving the country is actually recorded anywhere.

I wonder if someone from Mexico or Central America (less likely) would routinely be approved for tourist visas or a family visit. Maybe officials check for clear signs that the stay is temporary.

That sounds like an arrangement of convenience on both sides. I imagine the volume of human movement both ways each day makes it impractical to do otherwise.

 

[Belz...]

The best people.

 

[Hellbound]

Just an FYI, as I'm currently planning a vacation to Canada:

You now DO require proof of citizenship and ID to re-enter the U.S. This can be a passport, passport card, or an enhanced driver's license (Real ID).

That's for Canada, and I assume the same now for Mexico (as it relates to changes in U.S. law).

 

[lomiller]

Yes, there is. If you are on the run, you (probably) won't make it through US exit security at border points. The country you are entering afterwards won't be checking your US criminal history, just if you are carrying fruit-fly larvae or kilos of drugs...unless the USA supplies that data and asks for you to be collared.

The exit point, if there is one at all, is basically just a both were someone watches people drive by. Any actual checking is done by the country you are trying to enter.

Agreements to hold people wanted for crimes would be in place, but even if these do not apply anyone rejected at the border would still need to cross a US checkpoint to get back so they would be arrested there.

I believe US airlines check passports even on one-way flights. If you can’t get into the country you are flying to, the country is going to send you back to the US and the airline doesn’t want to be on the hook for the return airfare.

Canada checks US passports at the border for the same reasons. Perhaps is changed but at one point it was still technically legal for American citizens to enter Canada without a passport. These people, however would not be able to get back into the US after post 9/11 rules requiring passports were put in place. The Canadian border would reject them, not because Canada required the passport for Americans but because they would be stuck there while things were sorted out going back to the US.

 

[Doubt]

I live about a 20 min. drive from Canada and also did a project in Juarez Mexico in the 90s. Everything changed after 9/11.

Prior to that crossing into either country by car was not checked by US customs or immigration. On the way back you needed to prove citizenship to re-enter the US. Although a drivers licencee did not really prove that they usually did not question it.

All of my trips to Mexico since 9/11 have been by plane. Still go into Canada by car. Passport needed for both directions. There are enhanced drivers licencees that can do the job for both countries if you are not flying. I don't have one of those.

You are not checked by US immigration driving into Canada. But if you get over the bridge or tunnel without a passport Canadian immigration is not going to be happy with you.

Airlines always check. TSA will want to see that you have a passport if you are flying international. Although they are federal employees this is not an immigration check. The airlines don't want to have to fly you back if you get deported so they make sure you have a valid passport and a visa if needed. But that is not ICE doing the check for that.

 

[Giordano]

In looking this up I found that the answer of whether one can LEAVE the US legally without a passport is a little complicated:

1. There is no question that in almost cases one needs a passport to ENTER or RE-ENTER the USA. However there are options here if one loses ones passport, and one can return from Mexico and Canada using a USA Enhanced Driver's License, Pass card, or certain other ID.

2. See #1 also for LEAVING the US to visit these countries.

3. More generally one is currently required by law to have a valid passport to LEAVE the USA, but in practice controls are much tighter at airports than at drive throughs/walk-throughs. Currently this requirement is supposedly most focused on preventing people who are criminal fugitives, out on bail, or have IRS tax issues from leaving. However it has been and still is used politically by which the USA government has confiscated the passports of citizens only suspected of a link to terrorism but never charged, and for purely political reasons apparently to prevent certain highly visible politicly active citizens from spreading their ideas abroad.

4. The requirement for a passport to leave the country has changed back and forth at different times in USA history driven by security vs. freedom concerns.

[mostly ninja'd by Doubt]

 

[lomiller]

I was talking about leaving the USA, not entry. I've left the USA many times in the last 40 years, and have always had to go through US Border Control. My observation is that US citizens were subject to passport checks just like us "aliens". Admittedly this was at airports.

As mentioned above, airports are a little different. It’s technically not US Customs preventing you from leaving it’s airport security making sure you have everything you need to get where you are going and return home so the airport doesn’t end up being stuck with you while your status is resolved.

 

[lomiller]

In looking this up I found that the answer of whether one can LEAVE the US legally without a passport is a little complicated:

1. There is no question that in almost cases one needs a passport to ENTER or RE-ENTER the USA. However there are options here if one loses ones passport, and one can return from Mexico and Canada using a USA Enhanced Driver's License, Pass card, or certain other ID.

2. See #1 also for LEAVING the US to visit these countries.

3. More generally one is currently required by law to have a valid passport to LEAVE the USA, but in practice controls are much tighter at airports than at drive throughs/walk-throughs. Currently this requirement is supposedly most focused on preventing people who are criminal fugitives, out on bail, or have IRS tax issues from leaving. However it has been and still is used politically by which the USA government has confiscated the passports of citizens only suspected of a link to terrorism but never charged, and for purely political reasons apparently to prevent certain highly visible politicly active citizens from spreading their ideas abroad.

4. The requirement for a passport to leave the country has changed back and forth at different times in USA history driven by security vs. freedom concerns.

[mostly ninja'd by Doubt]

Simply due to practical considerations you can’t leave the US without a passport because the other country won’t let you in.

Pre 9/11 you could travel between Canada the US and Mexico with just a driver’s licence but once a passport was required (and before other ID forms were implemented) Americans would be blocked at the border simply to prevent issues with them getting back into the US.

 

[Minoosh]

Back in the '40s my dad visited Mexico with some law school buddies - one was British. The Americans told him, "just say U.S. citizen when they ask coming back." The guy couldn't do it. He stated, "I am a loyal subject of King George VI." Nowadays that would confuse people but I guess it was OK at the time.

For years I would just shuffle up to the desk mouthing "U.S. citizen" and holding up any purchases. They did eventually start requiring a passport for coming back in, but Mexico still seems to take no notice of gringos walking into a border town.

 

[Minoosh]

ETA: On the church's own website is a statement by the pastor defending his decision to fill Trump's prayer request; at the bottom of the page is the full video (about 5 minutes long) of the prayer; watch it and decide for yourself if it was a prayer for the Virginia Beach victims and community.

Trump looks like he's on Thorazine.

 

[alfaniner]

Just in case people missed it the first time around, The PDJT tweeted

I believe that if people stoped using or subscribing to @ATT,

A day later, still not corrected. I doubt it is likely to be.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Stope it, your kiling me!