The Trump Presidency 14

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I hadn't thought about it in this context but IMO (and that of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) a true key human freedom is the right to LEAVE a country if one wishes. I believe we in the USA have that right (if adults, not under an arrest warrant/bail/etc.). The Soviet Union was evil for preventing this, right?.

Trump appears to be insisting that Mexico no longer recognize that freedom.

I recognize that for practical reasons there should be good cooperation so that people wishing to leave one country for another have the approval of both sides. Particularly if they share a border. But I feel that the USA should permit me to leave if I wish no matter where I plan to go. And the USA does. If I wish to go to Canada when I leave that is between me and Canada; there is no USA checkpoint when leaving the USA. Airlines check passports when embarking on round trip tickets (to assure re-entry to the USA) but I don't think they check if I have a visa for the country I am visiting, right? That only comes up at the immigration checkpoint in the country I am visiting.

Does the USA maintain USA-staffed checkpoints on the Canadian or Mexican borders to prevent USA citizens from illegally entering these neighbors? I don't think so. I think I can legally drive into either country without any USA agency able to stop me (except for legal warrants, et.). Once I cross the border then it would be the Canadian or Mexican officials who have the right to decide if I did so legally or not. And of course re-entering the USA could become complicated based on how I left it.
 
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At this point you have to wonder,givne Trump increasingly critical comments on Russia, that something has soured the bromance between Donnie and Putin......
I have always maintained Russia main purpose in helping Trump to be elected was not so much to get a puppet in the White House,but to create as much chaos and confusion in not just the US but in the West as a whole.
 
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dudalb said:
At this point you have to wonder,givne Trump increasingly critical comments on Russia, that something has soured the bromance between Donnie and Putin......
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Nah, it's just for show.
I have always maintained Russia main purpose in helping Trump to be elected was not so much to get a puppet in the White House,but to create as much chaos and confusion in not just the US but in the West as a whole.
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That part's probably correct.
 
dudalb said:
At this point you have to wonder,givne Trump increasingly critical comments on Russia, that something has soured the bromance between Donnie and Putin......
I have always maintained Russia main purpose in helping Trump to be elected was not so much to get a puppet in the White House,but to create as much chaos and confusion in not just the US but in the West as a whole.
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I absolutely agree.
 
dudalb said:
At this point you have to wonder,givne Trump increasingly critical comments on Russia, that something has soured the bromance between Donnie and Putin......
I have always maintained Russia main purpose in helping Trump to be elected was not so much to get a puppet in the White House,but to create as much chaos and confusion in not just the US but in the West as a whole.
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Agreed. And they couldn't have been provided a better opportunity than when Trump came down that escalator. If Putin ever believed in Fate, it would have been then.
 
Giordano said:
I hadn't thought about it in this context but IMO (and that of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) a true key human freedom is the right to LEAVE a country if one wishes. I believe we in the USA have that right (if adults, not under an arrest warrant/bail/etc.). The Soviet Union was evil for preventing this, right?.

Trump appears to be insisting that Mexico no longer recognize that freedom.

I recognize that for practical reasons there should be good cooperation so that people wishing to leave one country for another have the approval of both sides. Particularly if they share a border. But I feel that the USA should permit me to leave if I wish no matter where I plan to go. And the USA does. If I wish to go to Canada when I leave that is between me and Canada; there is no USA checkpoint when leaving the USA. Airlines check passports when embarking on round trip tickets (to assure re-entry to the USA) but I don't think they check if I have a visa for the country I am visiting, right? That only comes up at the immigration checkpoint in the country I am visiting.

Does the USA maintain USA-staffed checkpoints on the Canadian or Mexican borders to prevent USA citizens from illegally entering these neighbors? I don't think so. I think I can legally drive into either country without any USA agency able to stop me (except for legal warrants, et.). Once I cross the border then it would be the Canadian or Mexican officials who have the right to decide if I did so legally or not. And of course re-entering the USA could become complicated based on how I left it.
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Yes, there is. If you are on the run, you (probably) won't make it through US exit security at border points. The country you are entering afterwards won't be checking your US criminal history, just if you are carrying fruit-fly larvae or kilos of drugs...unless the USA supplies that data and asks for you to be collared.

Which is why those on the lam try to find some isolated spot to cross out of the USA to wherever they go to. Somewhere well out of sight...like crossing a big river at night... ;)
 
Giordano said:
I hadn't thought about it in this context but IMO (and that of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) a true key human freedom is the right to LEAVE a country if one wishes. I believe we in the USA have that right (if adults, not under an arrest warrant/bail/etc.). The Soviet Union was evil for preventing this, right?.

Trump appears to be insisting that Mexico no longer recognize that freedom.

I recognize that for practical reasons there should be good cooperation so that people wishing to leave one country for another have the approval of both sides. Particularly if they share a border. But I feel that the USA should permit me to leave if I wish no matter where I plan to go. And the USA does. If I wish to go to Canada when I leave that is between me and Canada; there is no USA checkpoint when leaving the USA. Airlines check passports when embarking on round trip tickets (to assure re-entry to the USA) but I don't think they check if I have a visa for the country I am visiting, right? That only comes up at the immigration checkpoint in the country I am visiting.

Does the USA maintain USA-staffed checkpoints on the Canadian or Mexican borders to prevent USA citizens from illegally entering these neighbors? I don't think so. I think I can legally drive into either country without any USA agency able to stop me (except for legal warrants, et.). Once I cross the border then it would be the Canadian or Mexican officials who have the right to decide if I did so legally or not. And of course re-entering the USA could become complicated based on how I left it.
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I believe US airlines check passports even on one-way flights. If you can’t get into the country you are flying to, the country is going to send you back to the US and the airline doesn’t want to be on the hook for the return airfare.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Yes, there is. If you are on the run, you (probably) won't make it through US exit security at border points. The country you are entering afterwards won't be checking your US criminal history, just if you are carrying fruit-fly larvae or kilos of drugs...unless the USA supplies that data and asks for you to be collared.

Which is why those on the lam try to find some isolated spot to cross out of the USA to wherever they go to. Somewhere well out of sight...like crossing a big river at night... ;)
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Yeah. but none of that is an impingement on your right to leave the USA, it relates to whether or not you are committing a crime if you do so because of circumstances (e.g. outstanding warrants, carrying contraband etc).

In the normal course of proceedings, the US Government does not have the right to prevent its citizens from leaving the USA.
 
smartcooky said:
Yeah. but none of that is an impingement on your right to leave the USA, it relates to whether or not you are committing a crime if you do so because of circumstances (e.g. outstanding warrants, carrying contraband etc).

In the normal course of proceedings, the US Government does not have the right to prevent its citizens from leaving the USA.
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I respectfully disagree.

The USA, as well as many other countries, does not imbue its citizens with the "right" to leave their country. To do so is a privilege, which can be legally withheld. As I understand it, US citizens have the constitutional right to travel freely (freedom of association??), but this applies only within US borders. Crossing those borders is different.

The USA uses passport control for citizens leaving the USA. So there are two stages to this: (1) not issuing (or revoking) a passport in the first place, and (2) using passport controls of various types to restrict exits for passport holders. These controls have been used many times for justified and unjustified reasons, both globally and selectively, over the years.
 
EvilBiker said:
"It's growing! IT'S GROWING! Don't stop till I have a mullet! THAT will energise my base!"


[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/VNM7rUW.jpg[/qimg]
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The reporting on Trump's spontaneous church visit was a travesty. A few of the sources I read seemed to presume, and thus suggest in their reports, a connection between Trump's visit and the Virginia Beach shooting spree. But this was incorrect; Trump strictly asked for prayers for himself.
 
Checkmite said:
The reporting on Trump's spontaneous church visit was a travesty. A few of the sources I read seemed to presume, and thus suggest in their reports, a connection between Trump's visit and the Virginia Beach shooting spree. But this was incorrect; Trump strictly asked for prayers for himself.
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OMG! Could he be anymore sick than that?

I'm putting this in the mentally ill thread.
 
Norman Alexander said:
......

The USA uses passport control for citizens leaving the USA. So there are two stages to this: (1) not issuing (or revoking) a passport in the first place, and (2) using passport controls of various types to restrict exits for passport holders. These controls have been used many times for justified and unjustified reasons, both globally and selectively, over the years.
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I don't think that's right. You need a passport to board a plane from the U.S. to a foreign country. But if you want to drive or catch a bus across the Canadian or Mexican border, or just walk, the foreign authorities won't let you in without a passport or passport card, and you'll have a hard time coming home without one, but U.S. authorities won't stop you.
 
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Bob001 said:
I don't think that's right. You need a passport to board a plane from the U.S. to a foreign country. But if you want to drive or catch a bus across the Canadian or Mexican border, or just walk, the foreign authorities won't let you in without a passport or passport card, and you'll have a hard time coming home without one, but U.S. authorities won't stop you.
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I'm not sure what Norman's on about, but I've returned to the US without ID. You need a date and place of birth, and the right accent.

Of course that was a long time ago and things have changed. But if you're a citizen and you show up at the border, you will get in.
 
Norman Alexander said:
I respectfully disagree.

The USA, as well as many other countries, does not imbue its citizens with the "right" to leave their country. To do so is a privilege, which can be legally withheld. As I understand it, US citizens have the constitutional right to travel freely (freedom of association??), but this applies only within US borders. Crossing those borders is different.

The USA uses passport control for citizens leaving the USA. So there are two stages to this: (1) not issuing (or revoking) a passport in the first place, and (2) using passport controls of various types to restrict exits for passport holders. These controls have been used many times for justified and unjustified reasons, both globally and selectively, over the years.
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Nope.
The United States of America is a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights incorporates this right into treaty law:

(1) Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.
(2) Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.
(3) The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.
(4) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.

The ICCPR entered into force for the initial ratifying states on 23 March 1976​
 
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Norman Alexander said:
I respectfully disagree.

The USA, as well as many other countries, does not imbue its citizens with the "right" to leave their country. To do so is a privilege, which can be legally withheld. As I understand it, US citizens have the constitutional right to travel freely (freedom of association??), but this applies only within US borders. Crossing those borders is different.

The USA uses passport control for citizens leaving the USA. So there are two stages to this: (1) not issuing (or revoking) a passport in the first place, and (2) using passport controls of various types to restrict exits for passport holders. These controls have been used many times for justified and unjustified reasons, both globally and selectively, over the years.
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Good points...your passport is the property of the US government and must be surrendered at any time upon request.
 
FenerFan said:
Good points...your passport is the property of the US government and must be surrendered at any time upon request.
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But they must have a valid reason for doing so. "Just because some petty bureaucrat wan't to act like a dick and confiscate your passport" is not a valid reason
 
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