A live Flat Earth debate hosted by SciDanMan

Steve001

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This previous live flat Earth vs not a flat Earth hosted by SciManDan debate between Conspiracy Catz and flat Earther Nathan Thompson reminds me of the current no rockets in a vacuum thread plus other threads.
https://youtu.be/BXQ5VCKxioc
 
rjh01 said:
I do not think people should debate flat earth believers. It only gives them credibility.
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gerdbonk said:
This. Flat-earthers are complete wingnuts.
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I would agree, but there appears to be persons, seemingly lots, out there whom fall for this idiocy. For that reason such nonsense in all it various forms needs to be exposed for what it is.
 
Steve001 said:
I would agree, but there appears to be persons, seemingly lots, out there whom fall for this idiocy. For that reason such nonsense in all it various forms needs to be exposed for what it is.
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I disagree on three counts.

First, I don't think very many people are "falling for" it at all. I think for most people, it's a pose they adopt for personal amusement, or as a result of some other dissatisfaction already present in their lives. I think very few people are actually believing the Earth is flat.

Second, so what if people believe the Earth is flat? For almost everybody, almost all the time, the Earth *is* flat, in every practical way. Even the parts of your daily life that really do depend on the Earth being round, like GPS on your phone, work whether you believe them or not. About the only people for whom the nonsense of a flat Earth needs to be exposed are space mission planners, and they already know the truth anyway. As nonsense goes, the flat earth is a good example of nonsense that doesn't really need to be exposed at all.

Third, it's trivial to expose, for anyone who actually wants to have their mind changed. But flat-earthers don't want their minds changed. You're trying to solve a problem of information, but the real problem is one of choice. You're talking about it as though we have to expose a great lie for the good of all mankind. But I think you're actually just trying to put a stop to a game of silly buggers that you don't approve of. Let it go, is my advice. It's not actually all that important, and the people you're trying to stop from having fun aren't interested in quitting their game on your account anyway.
 
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theprestige said:
I disagree on three counts.

First, I don't think very many people are "falling for" it at all. I think for most people, it's a pose they adopt for personal amusement, or as a result of some other dissatisfaction already present in their lives. I think very few people are actually believing the Earth is flat.

Second, so what if people believe the Earth is flat? For almost everybody, almost all the time, the Earth *is* flat, in every practical way. Even the parts of your daily life that really do depend on the Earth being round, like GPS on your phone, work whether you believe them or not. About the only people for whom the nonsense of a flat Earth needs to be exposed are space mission planners, and they already know the truth anyway. As nonsense goes, the flat earth is a good example of nonsense that doesn't really need to be exposed at all.

Third, it's trivial to expose, for anyone who actually wants to have their mind changed. But flat-earthers don't want their minds changed. You're trying to solve a problem of information, but the real problem is one of choice. You're talking about it as though we have to expose a great lie for the good of all mankind. But I think you're actually just trying to put a stop to a game of silly buggers that you don't approve of. Let it go, is my advice. It's not actually all that important, and the people you're trying to stop from having fun aren't interested in quitting their game on your account anyway.
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OK, you've convinced me. (I already had some similar thoughts myself, but you sort of crystalized at least 2 good reasons.)

I'll just add this: There's simple ignorance and there's willful ignorance. Flat eartherism is the latter, not the former. The former can be fixed. The latter cannot be fixed except by the person doing it themselves. I cannot talk anyone out of their willful ignorance, no matter how persuasive or clear or articulate my arguments might be. So it's important to understand which kind of ignorance you are dealing with, because that determines how you should deal with it.
 
My only hope is that a flat earther isn't put in charge of calculating the path of the ISS, the coordinates for a telescope, or even a southern airline route.
 
I used to be a flat-earther. When I was Five. I also believed in God, and UFOs, and Santa. Then I observed certain things that didn't add up, and cracks appeared in my belief. I went up to my parents and exclaimed "Santa doesn't exist!" And they said "Yes, its true - we've been lying to you".

The problem with flat-earthers is they never learned that lesson. Instead of taking the opportunity to purge themselves of other irrational beliefs, they felt betrayed by the truth. The truth took Santa from them, and made the World a bit less magical and more dreary. So they rejected it, and replaced Santa with other fantasies.

You will never convince a flat-earther that the Earth isn't flat, because they already know it isn't. But they want to believe in a fantasy - ie. something that even they know isn't true. And a flat Earth fits the bill nicely. On a local scale the Earth is 'flat' so they can go about their daily lives without fear. It's a much safer fantasy than say, believing you can fly.

After I revealed the truth about Santa to my parents, they implored me not to tell my little brother. "Let him find out for himself" they said. So I didn't, and he had a few more years of magic. Who are we to stop flat-earthers from having a little harmless fantasy in their lives? We already took Santa from them, and now this? No, we should pretend that the Earth really is flat, while 'debating' that it isn't.
 
theprestige said:
I disagree on three counts.

First, I don't think very many people are "falling for" it at all. I think for most people, it's a pose they adopt for personal amusement, or as a result of some other dissatisfaction already present in their lives. I think very few people are actually believing the Earth is flat.

Second, so what if people believe the Earth is flat? For almost everybody, almost all the time, the Earth *is* flat, in every practical way. Even the parts of your daily life that really do depend on the Earth being round, like GPS on your phone, work whether you believe them or not. About the only people for whom the nonsense of a flat Earth needs to be exposed are space mission planners, and they already know the truth anyway. As nonsense goes, the flat earth is a good example of nonsense that doesn't really need to be exposed at all.

Third, it's trivial to expose, for anyone who actually wants to have their mind changed. But flat-earthers don't want their minds changed. You're trying to solve a problem of information, but the real problem is one of choice. You're talking about it as though we have to expose a great lie for the good of all mankind. But I think you're actually just trying to put a stop to a game of silly buggers that you don't approve of. Let it go, is my advice. It's not actually all that important, and the people you're trying to stop from having fun aren't interested in quitting their game on your account anyway.
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I couldn't agree with this more. As far as conspiracy theories go, this one only harms the believer, even if only to make them look spectacularly stupid to those around them with a bit of common sense. Even BF believers are slightly more dangerous in that they are likely to wind up shooting themselves or others in the pursuit of furry feet. Look at all the information that has been thrown at rocket man in that thread, nothing penetrates that flat earth mindset because they don't want it to. Although the rest of us, I think, have enjoyed the education that has come from it.
 
theprestige said:
I disagree on three counts.

First, I don't think very many people are "falling for" it at all. I think for most people, it's a pose they adopt for personal amusement, or as a result of some other dissatisfaction already present in their lives. I think very few people are actually believing the Earth is flat.

Second, so what if people believe the Earth is flat? For almost everybody, almost all the time, the Earth *is* flat, in every practical way. Even the parts of your daily life that really do depend on the Earth being round, like GPS on your phone, work whether you believe them or not. About the only people for whom the nonsense of a flat Earth needs to be exposed are space mission planners, and they already know the truth anyway. As nonsense goes, the flat earth is a good example of nonsense that doesn't really need to be exposed at all.

Third, it's trivial to expose, for anyone who actually wants to have their mind changed. But flat-earthers don't want their minds changed. You're trying to solve a problem of information, but the real problem is one of choice. You're talking about it as though we have to expose a great lie for the good of all mankind. But I think you're actually just trying to put a stop to a game of silly buggers that you don't approve of. Let it go, is my advice. It's not actually all that important, and the people you're trying to stop from having fun aren't interested in quitting their game on your account anyway.
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I disagree. Almost entirely. Embracing ignorance is dangerous. Whether, we are talking about flat earth, Geo-centricsm, anti-vaccine, climate-denying or any of the make believe gods that condemn human sexuality, evolution, the superiority of men or various races. Beliefs inform actions.

Ridiculous ideas are deserving of ridicule.
 
It's pointless, the shape of the earth is not a matter for debate. It is a matter of fact.
 
Sherman Bay said:
My only hope is that a flat earther isn't put in charge of calculating the path of the ISS, the coordinates for a telescope, or even a southern airline route.
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My only hope is that people will stop pretending this is a serious risk.

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Of course, I also hope that people will stop pretending the Earth is flat.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
It's pointless, the shape of the earth is not a matter for debate. It is a matter of fact.
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So is evolution, global warming, and the germ theory of disease. Facts don't stop the ignorant and those that prey on ignorance.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
It's pointless, the shape of the earth is not a matter for debate. It is a matter of fact.
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How do you get consensus about a fact, except through debate?

Hell, our whole criminal justice system is based on the premise that facts are discovered through formal debate. Would you walk into a courtroom and tell the judge that the defense's argument is pointless, because the accused's guilt is not a matter for debate, it's a matter of fact?
 
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theprestige said:
My only hope is that people will stop pretending this is a serious risk.

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Of course, I also hope that people will stop pretending the Earth is flat.
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I hope people will stop pretending that Trump EVER tells the truth.

But like winning the lottery, there is little chance of any of this happening.
 
theprestige said:
What about the danger posed by flat-earthers? Are you concerned that their embrace of ignorance will put the ISS at risk?
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No. But let's not pretend embracing any ignorance is totally benign. The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.
 
theprestige said:
How do you get consensus about a fact, except through debate?

Hell, our whole criminal justice system is based on the premise that facts are discovered through formal debate. Would you walk into a courtroom and tell the judge that the defense's argument is pointless, because the accused's guilt is not a matter for debate, it's a matter of fact?
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Criminal justice is not science.

Direct observation shows us that the earth is not flat.

You are using exactly the same ******** as the Flerfers themselves.

go to Dover, see France from the cliff top. Go to the beach and don't see France.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Criminal justice is not science.

Direct observation shows us that the earth is not flat.

You are using exactly the same ******** as the Flerfers themselves.

go to Dover, see France from the cliff top. Go to the beach and don't see France.
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You're debating. You're making arguments from observation to prove a fact.

The only way to convince anyone of a fact is to debate the fact with them.
 
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