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Trans Women are not Women

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Ok.... so? Is that the women's fault? The way I see it, women (or anyone for that matter) can't control how many people attend their events.

Well no but it leads us back to what problem exactly we are trying to fix here.

Right now Progressives have tied themselves to three different wagons going in different directions and are getting mad at the world because they are starting to feel the strain as if its our fault.

1. Maintaining the illusion the men and women are biologically equal to each other.

2. Trying to accommodate the "Gender is self defined" crowd.

3. Not wanting women to be treated a second class citizens.

- Men are stronger and faster on average then women. I cannot make this not true.

- Watching stronger and faster people compete in a sport is generally more entertaining and will just attract more people who want to watch it. I cannot make this not true. In fact given the numbers I quote above it almost has to be true that women are more attracted to men's sports then women are. You don't get numbers that disparate with only half the people coming along. I can pretty much safely guarantee that there are more women at the average NBA game then WNBA game so... yeah.

- You can (and should) fight against stupid and arbitrary roles places on genders by society but you can over ride biology by... wishing basically. I cannot make that not true.

- Society can't, to say nothing of should have to, rewrite rules to accommodate every outlier case. There will cases we cannot account for. I cannot make that not true.
 
What is an event in this context? How does this apply to businesses and public institutions?







The outcry I tend to see is when casting someone of non marginalized status in a marginalized role. Like John Wayne as Ghengis Khan.

Are you talking about Ghengis Khan the legendary patriarch and warlord? Leader of one of the greatest conquering armies the world has ever seen? Ruler of one history's great empires? That marginalized role?
 
I read that post, just fyi. I just was a bit busy at the time and didn't really have time to compose the sort of well-thought out response it deserves. Also I'm still kind of mulling it over. I guess that different people can look at the same thing and see it in vastly different ways, and I try to look at an issue from various viewpoints before coming to a firm conclusion about it.

When I first read about so-called "puberty blockers" they were presented as something that's safe and well-tested, and that all you had to do was to stop taking them and then puberty would progress again naturally. Now I'm not so sure about that, and also questioning whether children that young truly know what they will want for the rest of their lives. If it renders them infertile or, for males, leaves them with a child-sized penis or impotence as an adult, that's something they might come to regret later. OTOH, it's said by the other side that the regret is more often not getting this treatment before they develop the sex characteristics they don't want.

There's also the question about how will they feel about it when they are 30 or 40 or 50 or 60. I guess we're seeing a massive experiment take place that will play out over the next several decades.


We are indeed. An experiment with the bodies of children and young people.

The problem is that this is being entirely driven by advocacy pressure groups who are not medical experts and who are quite frankly batcrap mental. Mermaids for example. They have succeeded in having themselves appointed as the advisers and the trainers on all things trans-related and are pushing their falsehoods and anti-science into schools, youth organisations and public bodies. So we get the lies about puberty blockers being harmless and simply buying time and the kids can just stop them any time they want. None of this is true.

First, puberty blockers themselves are not harmless. There is a group of people who were prescribed them for a couple of years for precocious puberty, to spare them the embarrassment of having breasts and periods (or baritone voices and beards) at the age of seven. Duration of treatment was fairly short and these people then progressed to the normal puberty for their sex. Nevertheless they have experienced serious ill-health which they attribute to the puberty blockers. I can't find the article I was looking for but if you google "Lupron survivors" or "Lupron victims" you'll find some links.

Second, the whole "buying time" thing is bogus. It's as harmful for a child to delay puberty when his or her contemporaries have all passed through it as it is to start at seven. But more importantly, preventing natural puberty actually prevents the brain maturation which is all-important in allowing these children to sort out their gender identity. If gender-questioning children are supported to pass through the puberty of their natural sex the vast majority of them give up the notion of wanting to become the opposite sex. Given that life as a trans person is not a bed of roses and still wouldn't be if every single person they met was perfectly accepting and overwhelmingly supportive, given the permanent medicalisation and the surgery involved, this would normally be seen as the ideal outcome. However once these children are put on puberty blockers they don't change their minds. Their brains never pass through the stage that allows them to sort it all out. 100% of them progress to cross-sex hormones and that means permanent infertility even if they keep their gonads.

As far as the infantile penis thing is concerned, the problem isn't that an adult man is left with an infantile penis, it's that a sexless eunuch who wants to have a woman's body is left with too little material for a surgeon to be able to do the normal adult male-to-female sex reassignment surgery and more drastic solutions have to be found. There is also the question of health problems in later life including increased risks of heart attack, stroke, high blood pressure, cancer and bone density problems. Given that without the puberty blockers the majority of these men would grow up to be gay males perfectly happy with their own healthy bodies, this doesn't seem like a good trade-off.

OTOH, it's said by the other side that the regret is more often not getting this treatment before they develop the sex characteristics they don't want.


I think "the other side" you're referring to here are adult men who transitioned as adults. These are an entirely different class of patient from the "trans kids". Trans kids are not autogynaephiles. You can split hairs about what proportion of adult male transitioners are autogynaephilic all you like, the fact is that the leaders of the trans activist movement show all the behavioural characteristics of narcissistic autogynaephilia.

AGP men are mostly not very feminine (whereas HSTS men often are). They don't "pass" well. They wish they did. They look back at their childhood selves and think, if only I'd transitioned back then, I would pass so much better. (This is of course blatantly ignoring the fact that they were normal boyish boys and didn't go around playing with rainbow unicorns and asking people to call them Luna at the time.) They then project this regret on to the gender-confused and gender-nonconforming children and insist that their puberty needs to be prevented for the sake of their mental health. (With added lies about the rate of suicide among "trans kids" and emotional blackmail such as "do you want a dead son or a live daughter?")

And since these are the people who have seized control of the narrative and branded anyone who raises concerns as a transphobic bigot who hates trans people, wants them all dead and should be silenced and preferably sacked, we are where we are. What a mess.
 
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What is an event in this context? How does this apply to businesses and public institutions?


I'm defining event as any social activity that an individual can create. Be it a club, a class, a game/sport, a movie, etc.

The outcry I tend to see is when casting someone of non marginalized status in a marginalized role. Like John Wayne as Ghengis Khan. So I would take issue with a whites only improve class but not a blacks only one as it is specifically to combat a marginalized status.

So you take issue with one but not the other, even though they're both doing the exact same thing: Excluding an ethnic group. Don't worry, you're not alone in this lack of consistency. A lot of people seem to think it's ok to have an "only blacks class" or "only blacks movie" but not "only whites" because black people used to be slaves, so there's that sort of social/cultural guilt that is still in our unconscious. But from an objective viewpoint, it's just as bad to discriminate against white people, as it is with black people. Racial discrimination is racial discrimination. It's a can of worms, and if you decide to open, be ready to justify why a certain ethnic group is ok to be excluded and the other one isn't.

This is a great deal of why it's impossible to have these discussions. Because people tend to see certain ethnic groups, and just groups in general, as being "the oppressed ones", therefore they get a pass at certain things, where other ethnic groups don't, because they are "the oppressors".

And again, I guarantee you: as long as this is the mindset we're starting from, expect no progress at all in these discussions.
 
Well no but it leads us back to what problem exactly we are trying to fix here.

Right now Progressives have tied themselves to three different wagons going in different directions and are getting mad at the world because they are starting to feel the strain as if its our fault.

1. Maintaining the illusion the men and women are biologically equal to each other.

2. Trying to accommodate the "Gender is self defined" crowd.

3. Not wanting women to be treated a second class citizens.

- Men are stronger and faster on average then women. I cannot make this not true.

- Watching stronger and faster people compete in a sport is generally more entertaining and will just attract more people who want to watch it. I cannot make this not true. In fact given the numbers I quote above it almost has to be true that women are more attracted to men's sports then women are. You don't get numbers that disparate with only half the people coming along. I can pretty much safely guarantee that there are more women at the average NBA game then WNBA game so... yeah.

- You can (and should) fight against stupid and arbitrary roles places on genders by society but you can over ride biology by... wishing basically. I cannot make that not true.

- Society can't, to say nothing of should have to, rewrite rules to accommodate every outlier case. There will cases we cannot account for. I cannot make that not true.

Hahaha, wait.... so far we're on complete agreement here. What was our point of contention again? The proposed solution? If so, what is your proposed solution?
 
A lot of people seem to think it's ok to have an "only blacks class" or "only blacks movie" but not "only whites" because black people used to be slaves, so there's that sort of social/cultural guilt that is still in our unconscious. But from an objective viewpoint, it's just as bad to discriminate against white people, as it is with black people. Racial discrimination is racial discrimination. It's a can of worms, and if you decide to open, be ready to justify why a certain ethnic group is ok to be excluded and the other one isn't.


Actually I think I lean in the opposite direction. In an ideal world where there was no racism at all and the colour of your skin was no more worthy of note than the colour of your eyes, I can't see any reason for not having particular groupings for, say, drama, if someone wants to.

I sing soprano. Maybe I'd like to sing in a Welsh male-voice choir (actually it would probably be great!) but I'm not equipped. So I do something else instead.
 
I'm defining event as any social activity that an individual can create. Be it a club, a class, a game/sport, a movie, etc.



So you take issue with one but not the other, even though they're both doing the exact same thing: Excluding an ethnic group. Don't worry, you're not alone in this lack of consistency.

It isn't consistency it is context. Pretending that larger issues do not play a role is pointless in the real world.
A lot of people seem to think it's ok to have an "only blacks class" or "only blacks movie" but not "only whites" because black people used to be slaves,

No, first there are plenty of only white movies even when they don't market themselves as that. And your rational is wrong, it is about the present day not the past.
so there's that sort of social/cultural guilt that is still in our unconscious. But from an objective viewpoint, it's just as bad to discriminate against white people, as it is with black people.

Sure but having a whites only class vs a blacks only class is different because they all exist within different contexts. If it was in something that whites where underrepresented in there might be a purpose to it, but that is not a situation that comes up in the US certainly not very often. So in the right broader context I would be fine with it. That is just simply a hypothetical.

In movies we know that everyone defaults to white, and they are only different that it becomes an issue. This then gets perpetuated by not giving the roles to build big careers to non white actors as often as white ones.
Racial discrimination is racial discrimination. It's a can of worms, and if you decide to open, be ready to justify why a certain ethnic group is ok to be excluded and the other one isn't.

Context. Ideally they would all be wrong but we live in a less than ideal world.
This is a great deal of why it's impossible to have these discussions. Because people tend to see certain ethnic groups, and just groups in general, as being "the oppressed ones", therefore they get a pass at certain things, where other ethnic groups don't, because they are "the oppressors".

And again, I guarantee you: as long as this is the mindset we're starting from, expect no progress at all in these discussions.

And ignoring all the real racism and oppression that continues to exist in the world doesn't exactly help dealing with it either.
 
Hahaha, wait.... so far we're on complete agreement here.

Mostly it seems. I just saying that you treating "We'll just have different events" isn't a viable option to put on the table.

That's my issue. There is no viable option, but every option we take off the table we get "Bigot" screamed at us.

We have to pretend that some perfectly balanced paradox of "Men and women are identical, except when they aren't, and gender is self defining except when it isn't" is the one true way and makes perfect sense.
 
I'm defining event as any social activity that an individual can create. Be it a club, a class, a game/sport, a movie, etc.

It's not a question of whether an individual is able to create any event they want, with any rules they want.

It's a question of what we, as a society together, should do when -
- an event is so popular for so long as to become a social institution; and
- some members of society wish to participate in the event; but
- the rules of the event don't permit that.

This is a difficult question to answer, because we as a society together have several competing values that need to be counter-balanced in a way that tries to give value to everyone as much as possible.

We value inclusion and tolerance. We also value individual freedom of association. We also - obviously - value sports contests between top athletes of comparable ability. We also value gender segregation in certain things, most of the time.

USA Powerlifting has banned transwomen from competing as women. But if a judge rules that such a ban is sexual discrimination, then what? USAP must either allow transwomen to compete in their women's events, or they have to stop having women's events. Probably men's events, too. Just open events, which will be dominated by men and pre-transition transwomen (i.e., more men).

Or they could comply with the ruling by allowing transwomen to compete as women in their events. But that raises more questions than it answers. I wonder if you have any answers for these?
- What happens when the only way to be competitive at USAP women's events is to be a transwoman?
- At what point in the transition process is a man considered a woman for the purposes of sports competitions?
- Are sports organizations even going to be allowed to make such a determination?
- If the trans community succeeds in litigating a legal definition of "woman" that includes "any man who says they are a woman", what then?
 
Splitting up events is fine when there are actual differences. It becomes a problem when there aren't. This isn't rocket surgery.
Sometimes its a problem (IE not fine) when there are. Kenyans win an awful lot of marathons for example. But the social downside of racially segregating them is deemed greater than tolerating the imbalance that makes it pretty hard for many other nationalities to win medals and records.

With sex segregation, the downside of tolerating the near impossibility of women winning is much greater and not many people think this segregation is bad.
 
Can you imagine that? Can you imagine being accused of a hate crime because you didn't want to date a 'woman' who has a penis?

I mean, how about someone who dates exclusively black women? Is that racist? Come on.

I've asked the question and the response I recieve is a follows.

If you only want to date white women you are either racist or internally racist depending on your race. If you only want to date black women you are either fetishizing the race or again internally racist depending on race.

This **** is just about creating a warhammerly complicated series of social rules so people can always have a way to shame someone they feel has more privilege.
 
If you only want to date white women you are either racist or internally racist depending on your race. If you only want to date black women you are either fetishizing the race or again internally racist depending on race.

Well yes this is pretty much true. What next having racial or sex preferences in employees is just one of those things?

The focus on race as a primary vetting issue really is hard to say it isn't racist.
 
Sometimes its a problem (IE not fine) when there are. Kenyans win an awful lot of marathons for example. But the social downside of racially segregating them is deemed greater than tolerating the imbalance that makes it pretty hard for many other nationalities to win medals and records.

With sex segregation, the downside of tolerating the near impossibility of women winning is much greater and not many people think this segregation is bad.

And we need to have detailed medical tests to determine if the athletes have an allowable degree of natural medical advantage or an excessive degree making them unsuitable and in need or medically reducing their ability.
 
Mostly it seems. I just saying that you treating "We'll just have different events" isn't a viable option to put on the table.

I don't disagree with you, in principle, that there's no Universal Solution that will make everyone happy. I'm only stating what I think is the most reasonable solution, regardless of whether a lot of people will still disagree. So then, do you object to my proposal because you personally disagree with the solution I proposed, or because you claim that a lot of people will still yell "bigotry!" at that solution?

In the end, perhaps the only "fair" way to solve these issues is to subject it to a votation I think.
 
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I don't disagree with you, in principle, that there's no Universal Solution that will make everyone happy. I'm only stating what I think is the most reasonable solution, regardless of whether a lot of people will still disagree. So then, do you object to my proposal because you personally disagree with the solution I proposed, or because you claim that a lot of people will still yell "bigotry!" at that solution?

For what kind of event? It means that for example trans high school athletes can not compete in sports. Separate but equal has kind of a long history of not being terribly equal.
 
Actually I think I lean in the opposite direction. In an ideal world where there was no racism at all and the colour of your skin was no more worthy of note than the colour of your eyes, I can't see any reason for not having particular groupings for, say, drama, if someone wants to.

I sing soprano. Maybe I'd like to sing in a Welsh male-voice choir (actually it would probably be great!) but I'm not equipped. So I do something else instead.

Right. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where there are racist people, and non-racist people. Some people make decisions (such as not hiring a black/white/latino actor) based on racism, others would make the same exact decision but not out of racism. Do you think that non-racist people should not be allowed to make personal casting choices just because there are other people out there who would make that decision out of racism? Seems absurd, unfair and most importantly, pointless. In what possible way would that combat racism anyway?
 
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Right. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where there are racist people, and non-racist people.

Not really everyone is subject to unconscious biases to all their actions. No one can ever be sure if non quantitative decisions they make are devoid or racism. They can just try to do better.
 
Right. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where there are racist people, and non-racist people. Some people make decisions (such as not hiring a black/white/latino actor) based on racism, others would make the same exact decision but not out of racism. Do you think that non-racist people should not be allowed to make personal casting choices just because there are other people out there who would make that decision out of racism? Seems absurd, unfair and most importantly, pointless. In what possible way would that combat racism anyway?


I was only musing what my thoughts would be if we lived in a perfectly non-racist world. Indeed, this doesn't have any relevance to how we handle the situation in the world we actually live in.
 
I don't think there is one universal answer to all situations.

Sports, social situations, private spaces...they all have different answers. Even within those, they may have different answers in different contexts.

Different sports, for example, should have different criteria. I'm not even sure the criteria need always be rigid. Some case to case exceptions may be reasonable.

This isn't quite the same thing, but it crossed my mind....

This is an article about a boy who wants to play volleyball, but the only teams (school, club or otherwise) are girl's teams. The local club let him in, but had to make some concessions (back row only) in order to play him when he reached age 13. Some parents on other teams had problems with it despite the fact that he's actually smaller than the girls.
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/lo...t-let-gender-keep-him-playing-volleyball.html

Now, as far as I know, he's not trans. And he was only 13 at the time of the article, so had little to no advantage over the girls. Because of this, the coaches were able to make some arrangements based on his specific circumstance. Sometimes reasonable exceptions can be made. Now were he 6 foot tall (the height of one of my daughter's middle school teammates) it would have been harder to accommodate.

My point is that I think it's sometimes appropriate to have some flexibility in whatever rules are decided on.
 
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