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Trans Women are not Women

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ponderingturtle said:
Only if you think that trans women are likely sexual predators. I know I know that stereotype is as ingrained as the rampaging rapist black man, but that doesn't make it valid.
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They don't have to be sexual predators for the vast majority of the users of these facilities to feel (at the very least) unease at their presence. It's a point that's been made a hundred times in this thread.

It strikes me that you're appealing to a 'perfect world' concept, where such unease isn't felt. It isn't a perfect world by any means.
 
As a friend of mine said on twitter, the next Jimmy Savile won't be wearing a track suit, he'll be wearing a frock. And again nobody will dare criticise him or call him out because the trans have an absolutely free pass to do what they like. Anybody who objects can just be called a transphobic bigot and that's the end of it.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Only if you think that trans women are likely sexual predators.I know I know that stereotype is as ingrained as the rampaging rapist black man, but that doesn't make it valid.
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I think part of the point is how do you tell a trans woman from a non trans dude when they enter the restroom/locker room?

With self ID there is no diagnosis or other process required. And even if a diagnosis was required, how would anyone know? Someone checking ID at the door? Scarlet letter sewn into their clothes?

Women have been punished in a few cases for challenging someone.

Essentially, without a limit on access, which no one has found a way to enforce, everything becomes effectively gender neutral. Gender neutral doesn’t bother me, but it does bother others.
 
Belz... said:
Ah, yes. The good old "if you don't want to date chicks with dicks you're transphobic!" meme.
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Feet to the fire, and coming at it from a radically different place then Rolfe's hysteria, I can see parts of the movement building to that.

Whether or not it will ever "take hold" as a mainstream opinion is impossible to nail down before the fact.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Feet to the fire, and coming at it from a radically different place then Rolfe's hysteria, I can see parts of the movement building to that.

Whether or not it will ever "take hold" as a mainstream opinion is impossible to nail down before the fact.
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Can you imagine that? Can you imagine being accused of a hate crime because you didn't want to date a 'woman' who has a penis?

I mean, how about someone who dates exclusively black women? Is that racist? Come on.
 
Belz... said:
I mean, how about someone who dates exclusively black women? Is that racist? Come on.
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According to a lot (I can't pin some exact X% of the population number on it, but enough so it's not some statistically insignificant anomaly) of people absolutely.
 
This isn't even an issue about whether trans women are actual women. That's actually a moot point within the topic of this thread, regarding women sports rules. This is way simpler and less controversial than that. This about the rules of a game. It goes like this: I invent a game and I also invent the rules. Here's Rule Number 1: In this game, children are not allowed to play. But for me to set that rule, I must also define what I (specifically I, the creator of the game) mean by "children". So lets say that for me, people as old as 15 years old are considered children. So basically, no human being that is 15 years old is allowed to play because in my game "Children are not allowed".

Now you come and say "Excuse me, but a 15 year old is not a child. By 15 most of them already hit puberty etc etc"... which is completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is how I, the creator of the game, define the rules. As creator of a game, I have a right to decide who gets to play and who doesn't. That is basic common sense. There's no human rights violation. Because you too, have the right to create your own game and set the rules, even if its a dick rule like "In this game only Ron Tomkins is not allowed to play" :D


So again, we can spend the rest of our lives defining Trans Women to try to determine whether they are actual women or not.... but it's irrelevant. When these sports games were created, they were created for biological men and women. Not trans women. Period. If trans women are so upset by this, then create your own games where no one else but trans women are allowed to play.

And grow the **** up :)
 
Again that just doesn't work when the group in question's literal stated reason for existing is to be seen as X without modifiers. Not equal to X, not equivalent to X, not a special sub-category of X, not some new version of X, but as literal across the board in every situation X.
 
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Ron_Tomkins said:
As creator of a game, I have a right to decide who gets to play and who doesn't. That is basic common sense. There's no human rights violation. Because you too, have the right to create your own game and set the rules, even if its a dick rule like "In this game only Ron Tomkins is not allowed to play"
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Does not apply because there are oversight regulators and indeed courts that have enforcement power over recognised international sports (not to mention national sports), and they have various equality requirements.

Sorry.
 
Francesca R said:
Does not apply because there are oversight regulators and indeed courts that have enforcement power over recognised international sports (not to mention national sports), and they have various equality requirements.

Sorry.
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It still applies. it's still a made up game. The only thing you're saying is that there are several groups of people who are weighing in on the rules. But it's still a game, made up by humans. I don't know who, amongst all those groups of people will end up having the final say about the issue, but the bottom line is No creator of a game is in the obligation to change their rules because a group of people want them changed.
 
I don't think anybody knows who is the "creator" of the women's 800 metres, and it's not even relevant.

Bit of a squirm there on your part.

People (as is their right) are lobbying regulators and appealing to courts through regular channels to seek to change rules of admission to the event. In no sense does it all wave away according to your outline.
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
It still applies. it's still a made up game. The only thing you're saying is that there are several groups of people who are weighing in on the rules. But it's still a game, made up by humans. I don't know who, amongst all those groups of people will end up having the final say about the issue, but the bottom line is No creator of a game is in the obligation to change their rules because a group of people want them changed.
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Oh come on Ron you're not that naive. You know how that would go.

Transgender: Hello Ron I want to play in your game.
Ron: Are you a biological X?
Transgender: Well no but I identify as X.
Ron: Sorry, no.
Progressives: OUTRAGE! OUTRAGE! YOU MISGENDERED THEM! DO YOU WANT THEM TO KILL THEMSELVES! TRANSPHOBE! TRANSPHOBE!
*Pondering Turtle runs in, screams at the wall for 30 seconds, then runs out*
 
Francesca R said:
I don't think anybody knows who is the "creator" of the women's 800 metres, and it's not even relevant.

Bit of a squirm there on your part.

People (as is their right) are lobbying regulators and appealing to courts through regular channels to seek to change rules of admission to the event. In no sense does it all wave away according to your outline.
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Well, good luck with that.
I don't know how this will all end, but here's my prediction: This whole debate about whether trans women are actually women is never going to end. You will always have people who simply don't agree that a trans woman is the same as a woman (Mainly because basic science showing that this is not the case) So, prepare for a lifetime of never-ending debates about this issue. It will not end. Just like the debates about the existence of God, Free Will, Morality, Veganism, etc. As long as human beings exist, those debates will continue going on.


Here's a much simpler approach where we can all skip these debates: Everyone has a right to create their own game/event/club and define the rules of admission. No need to even touch the debate of "what constitutes a man/woman/child/latino/disabled" etc. As creator of the event, I decide who's admitted and who isn't. You don't like it? Create your own. No one's stopping you.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Feet to the fire, and coming at it from a radically different place then Rolfe's hysteria, I can see parts of the movement building to that.

Whether or not it will ever "take hold" as a mainstream opinion is impossible to nail down before the fact.
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Let me help, I'll nail it down for you. No. No it won't become mainstream.

You can come out from under the covers now. ;)
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
Here's a much simpler approach where we can all skip these debates: Everyone has a right to create their own game/event/club and define the rules of admission. No need to even touch the debate of "what constitutes a man/woman/child/latino/disabled" etc. As creator of the event, I decide who's admitted and who isn't. You don't like it? Create your own. No one's stopping you.
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//Devil's Advocate//

Great Ron, you just defended the Negro Leagues.
 
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