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Trans Women are not Women

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I don't really have a view on whether AGP is useful to distinguish trans women from other men. Pathological AGP however be a marker of the objectionable trans women who hate women. And may help understanding of how this problem comes about.

And I tend to agree that the more diluted the definition and the more people it captures the less useful it becomes to a good extent. There are ways of categorizing homosexuality for example that would have almost everybody being gay.
 
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I don't really have a view on whether AGP is useful to distinguish trans women from other men. Pathological AGP however be a marker of the objectionable trans women who hate women. And may help understanding of how this problem comes about.
I'm not sure what this means, but I'm all in favor of sticking to pathological AGP in this discussion.

And I tend to agree that the more diluted the definition and the more people it captures the less useful it becomes to a good extent. There are ways of categorizing homosexuality for example that would have almost everybody being gay.

I guess I was confused about why the conversation ever got to that point in the first place.
 
The highlight refers to the loud subset that Rolfe mostly refers to.

Why the discussion got to the point you are mystified about, in my opinion that is concerned with gaining understanding of why this group of folks behaves as it does


ETA As in, is this likely to be a common result of severe pathological AGP, or correlated with it. Does this variant of AGP come out of nowhere or is it a latency in a significant fraction of folks to a below the radar degree. And so on.
 
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There may be competition for what the definition of autogynaephilic is, I understand it as an erotic desire to be a woman when one is not a woman. That means natal woman. So natal women can't meet that definition.

Some may argue that trans women are every bit as much women as natal women implying the definition can not apply to trans women either. I don't agree with that.

Or they may argue that since natal women do actually likely experience erotic desire to be women as well (true I think) then all the whole autogynaephilia business shows is that trans women are the same as natal women in this respect, which is what trans women have been saying all along. I find that rather circular and affirming the consequent to say the least.

Obviously, a natal woman cannot have autogynaphilia. That's not the point.

The point is that when you give same/similar questions to natal and trans women, you are measuring the same thing in both. If testing both natal women and trans women produce the same or similar results, it suggests that whatever you are measuring is the same in both groups.

For example if, as some contend, a trans woman is psychologically female (woman in a man's body), you would expect them to score similar to natal women on these types of tests.

Similarly, you would expect a trans man to score similarly to natal men.

So by definition, women cannot have autogynaphilia (and men cannot have auto androphilia). Bot if trans women and natal women score the same on the diagnostic tests...what are you actually diagnosing?
 
I don't really have a view on whether AGP is useful to distinguish trans women from other men. Pathological AGP however be a marker of the objectionable trans women who hate women. And may help understanding of how this problem comes about.

And I tend to agree that the more diluted the definition and the more people it captures the less useful it becomes to a good extent. There are ways of categorizing homosexuality for example that would have almost everybody being gay.

I'm not sure where the leap comes from autogynophilia to hating women (mysogyny).

I have mixed feelings about the bathroom changing room issue, but I don't think the majority of actual trans people who want into womens spaces dislike women or want to be in those spaces with the purpose of making women uncomfortable. I think they want to be accepted. When acceptance doesn't come there is often a response that lashes out against the group they think they should be part of.

As a result, the attitudes from both sides, I think, are not conducive to discussion and cooperation. Each side sees the other as an enemy attacking them.

The fact that there ARE some truly sick people out there (like the ones Rolfe has mentioned) does not help. While I don't think those people are typical of the trans community, they illustrate how an honor system could be abused. At the same time, all suggestions on how to address or prevent that abuse throw the legitimate trans community under the bus (from their perspective).
 
Think I covered your response in the third paragraph you quoted.

Yes, I missed that.

I find the whole thing circular no matter what angle you come at it from.

Autogynophilia as cause of trans-ness: Trans women experience autogynophilia. Trans women therefore want to be women for sexual gratification.

Autogynophilia as result of trans-ness: Trans women are psychologically women, therefore Trans women experience measure the same as natal women.

I'm sure there are cases when both (or neither) are true. But, at the moment, the whole autogynophilia thing does not seem very useful to me in terms of generalized explanations of trans people.
 
...

I have mixed feelings about the bathroom changing room issue, but I don't think the majority of actual trans people who want into womens spaces dislike women or want to be in those spaces with the purpose of making women uncomfortable. I think they want to be accepted. When acceptance doesn't come there is often a response that lashes out against the group they think they should be part of.

...

Acceptance? Or is it more to do with validating the delusion that they are real women and that they are therefore entitled to occupy women's spaces? In which case the lashing out when rejected would be narcissistic rage.

Transwomen could put their energies into campaigning to make men's toilets safe for transwomen to use.
 
Transwomen could put their energies into campaigning to make men's toilets safe for transwomen to use.
Maybe the best solution is for women to keep dudes - including dudes who claim to be women - out of their restroom; and for dudes to keep women - including dudes who claim to be women - out of their restroom.
 
Maybe the best solution is for women to keep dudes - including dudes who claim to be women - out of their restroom; and for dudes to keep women - including dudes who claim to be women - out of their restroom.

So just set up a trough in the hallway for dudes who claim to be women?
(You excluded them from both places. Not sure if that was intentional.)
 
Transwomen could put their energies into campaigning to make men's toilets safe for transwomen to use.

Or we could all put our energies into making all restrooms safe for everyone to use.

Just a thought.
 
Yes, I missed that.

I find the whole thing circular no matter what angle you come at it from.

Autogynophilia as cause of trans-ness: Trans women experience autogynophilia. Trans women therefore want to be women for sexual gratification.

Autogynophilia as result of trans-ness: Trans women are psychologically women, therefore Trans women experience measure the same as natal women.

I'm sure there are cases when both (or neither) are true. But, at the moment, the whole autogynophilia thing does not seem very useful to me in terms of generalized explanations of trans people.

I'm not sure it's "useful" in that way.

It was an observation made based on a limited data set, which was the set of men requesting MtF transition about 30 years ago. He found that they nearly all fit into two categories

1. Young, effeminate, homosexuals.
2. Older men who had lived as heterosexuals, who continued to be attracted to women, and who had autogynephilic fantasies.

In that case, i.e. category 2, all middle aged MtF transsexuals (not transgenders, that wasn't a thing in 1989) had autogynephilic fantasies, but not all men who had autogynephilic fantasies were transsexuals.



Subsequent research has broadened the scope of the data set available, and shifting social attitudes have also likely changed the way people respond to questionnaires, so later studies did not confirm, completely, these findings.


However, autogynephilic fantasies were confirmed to be common among MtF transgenders in later studies.
 
Or we could all put our energies into making all restrooms safe for everyone to use.



Just a thought.
One strategy that seems to have worked pretty well so far is keeping men out of women's restrooms.

I don't think anyone has yet suggested a workable method for letting transwomen in, but keeping men out.
 
I believe it was Seinfeld who said that guys like watching lesbian porn because they agree with both of them. That doesn't require wanting to be a woman. Instead, it's simply getting to watch women engage in sex without seeing another guy in the way taking up space. The fantasy is frequently imagining that the viewer is going to end up joining in as a man, not as a woman.
I've always thought it had to do with knowing the women could satisfy each other, therefor the man didn't have to worry about anyone's orgasm(s) but his own. A big relief for men who aren't sure exactly what to do.
 
I'm not sure where the leap comes from autogynophilia to hating women (mysogyny).
That has been outlined many times, not just by me.
I would make no claim about that other than autogynaephilia at some level of affectation should without shadow of doubt push its subject towards trans identification.

More than that, such a trans identifier is, I would think, most likely to remain attracted to mostly female, and, "I would think" be most likely to experience anxiety about not being able to be what they most want to be with the result being a level of hatred towards women and particularly to lesbians who are not interested in them.
In extreme cases [of autogynaephilia], it seems both highly plausible and congruent with observation that sufferers attach hate to the sex they want to be but can not be, and this could be exaggerated in the case of gay women who "should" desire the sufferer but in fact want nothing from them.
(I am not a psychologist)
 
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Thoughts on the whole "Blanchard" discussion.

First, by coincidence, I stumbled on an interview with him at National Review. It seems his Twitter account was temporarily suspended for "hateful" speech, though it was quickly reinstated and Twitter said it was an error to suspend it. That, apparently, triggered NR to seek an interview. There isn't anything truly earth shaking in the interview. I wouldn't call it a "must read", but I'm sure some would find it interesting, if they find this thread interesting.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/ray-blanchard-transgender-orthodoxy/

Now, back to my thoughts.

I have concluded that Blanchard's work is limited, and that not all 40 year old men who now identify as transwomen are described as autogynephilics. This is based on subsequent studies that found plenty of examples that didn't fit the mold. An awful lot of people have jumped on those studies and said, "See, we can ignore Blanchard, and since we can ignore Blanchard, we can completely discard any reference to autogynephilia."

Not so fast.

Serano acknowledged the presence of cross gender arousal, and noted that no one would deny it. So, for our purposes, i.e. as laymen not trying to publish academic papers, the name isn't all that important. What is significant is that there are guys in the world who are heterosexuals, but who are turned on by the idea of themselves as women. That isn't even a controversial statement. (See Serano, and others, and any number of erotic novels for sale on Amazon.)

We've known about these sorts for a long time. The most familiar manifestation would be transvestites. They get off on wearing women's clothing. I suppose for some, the articles themselves might become a fetishistic item, so just the proximity to women's clothes might be a sexual trigger. However, I would assume that for some of them, the appeal of wearing women's clothing is that it is the most explicit way in which one might act out the fantasy of being a woman.

The other ways in which a man might act out that fantasy are left to your imaginations.

The most controversial and widely attacked element of Blanchard's work is the idea that autogynephilic fantasies actually cause transsexualism. In my opinion, "cause" is a difficult word when dealing with human behavior. "Why" questions, or "causes" are just hard to evaluate. What isn't all that hard to evaluate, though, is a simple observation that people who have sexual fantasies will often desire to act out those fantasies, sometimes going to great lengths to do so. For example, a man might have sexual fantasies about a specific woman, and he will become so obsessed with the idea that he will enter into a state known in clinical settings as "marriage". This irrational behavior has been observed many times by professionals, and is well documented in the literature.

Well, other sorts of fantasies also drive people to attempt to act them out. The common ones are well known, but if you need some education on the subject, you can find them in Cosmopolitan. (Number 7 will blow your mind!) Now, if someone did enjoy the thought of being the opposite sex, how far would they be willing to go to enact that fantasy?

It seems to me that it would be absurd to suggest that no one would ever imagine themselves as the opposite sex, and almost as absurd to suggest that, having imagined it, no one would ever try to make it reality, or as close to reality as it could be. However, if you are skeptical of this point, we can observe what has actually happened. This gets to a point that Rolfe has brought up repeatedly. We can observe the behavior of some transwomen, and note that these people aren't acting like typical women. They might just be people living out a sexual fantasy.

Blanchard may have overestimated the role of autogynephilia as a cause of desire to transition to the opposite sex, but I don't think anyone could question the reality of the phenomenon, or reasonably deny that it plays a role in some transgenderism.
 
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That has been outlined many times, not just by me.

(I am not a psychologist)

But that's not autogynophilia causing hatred of women. It's rejection by a group they wish to be a part of or rejection by desired romantic partners.

Which in turn is also not caused by autogynophilia (skipping the rejection step, as that is external to the trans person) but caused by being trans.

The autogynophilia to hate chain depends on the primary cause of trans-ness to be autogynophilia, which I question. While I agree that autogynophilia can lead to trans, I also think that being trans can result in autogynophilia.

And yes, there are transwomen who speak in anger about those who won't date them when they are trans, or those who WILL date them, but only as a novelty and don't want to build a relationship. Trans people want the same things out of relationships as the rest of us. They don't want to be sex toys.

But where does all this anger and hatred start? Did it start with trans people lashing out at rejection, or did it start with non-trans people treating them as freaks and objects of ridicule? Did it start with perverts in the bathroom or did it start with trans people being beat up, raped or murdered because they were trans? Did it start with bathroom access being denied, or did it start with being rejected by friends, family and random strangers they passed on the street simply because they were trans?

Is the hate and anger initiated by the trans community or is it the trans community finally standing up and fighting back against the hate that has been directed at them?

It's a chicken and egg model.

Even the bathroom thing. Without doing an internet search, I'm not sure which side started it. Rolfe has said that there was previously an informal pass given to (at least some) trans people to access female spaces. Did that change with trans people requesting officially sanctioned access or did it change with some non-trans people noticing the informal pass and deciding to put an end to it? Which happened first, a trans kid demanding access in a locker room or a parent demanding access be denied? Who is fighting back against who? Did trans people start insisting on a bathroom access law first or did legislators start passing laws to deny bathroom access?

We now have sides, each pointing fingers at each other but not actually listening.
 
All these murders of transpeople. The fact is that statistically it's safer to be trans than either male or female in England and Wales.

Transactivists who draw on statistics relating to the murder of transwomen in less developed countries where these are often murders of sex workers (by clients who felt cheated or worse?) are being fundamentally dishonest.

As to how all this "started", it started because the trans lobby is fighting hard for anyone to be legally recognised as the opposite sex simply by signing a declaration, with no gatekeeping, no assessments, no checks or balances and absolutely no way to say no to anyone. In addition nobody is ever to be challenged if they simply claim to be the opposite sex, even if they haven't signed this declaration. Men are to be treated as if they were women with no distinction made in any way whatsoever. Women in particular are extremely alarmed by this.
 
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