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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 28

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Only because it cut and pasted from Boninsegna, who wasn't even the judge in the case complained of.

Are you, Counselor, now claiming that the ECHR cannot refer to, nor quote from, the motivation reports of previous courts directly concerned with the case? If so, perhaps you should report this error by the ECHR to the Rome Ministry of Justice lawyers.
 
Haha! 'Strong psychological pressure'. Straight outta Hellmann.

Yes, the guilty generally do feel stressed. It's the basis of lie detector machines. Border security is trained to spot the guy sweating and shaking.

Can't hide your involuntary physiological responses.

Even Ian Huntley showed signs of 'great pressure'. Poor diddums. Should have appealed on those grounds.

Nasty police.

Is it your contention that the innocent never feel 'strong psychological pressure' while under police interrogation? If so, I would be happy to provide evidence otherwise. But I have a feeling that you'd just hand wave it away anyway.
 
Where is the face palm emoji? Mignini did not realise how biased the film was until he saw the finished product. About ten PGPs versus Mignini and one DAILY MAIL journalist.

Wow. Mignini must be an extremely fragile soul, easily led.

Then again, Mignini was clear. In the Netflix doc, he used whole, unedited sentences. He clearly said that what convinced him on the first day that the killer had been female was because of the duvet.

Deal with it. Quit trying to protect him from himself.
 
Haha! 'Strong psychological pressure'. Straight outta Hellmann.

Yes, the guilty generally do feel stressed. It's the basis of lie detector machines. Border security is trained to spot the guy sweating and shaking.

Can't hide your involuntary physiological responses.

Even Ian Huntley showed signs of 'great pressure'. Poor diddums. Should have appealed on those grounds.

Nasty police.

Straight outta Hellmann is my fav NWA song.
 
Knox blamed Patrick for the murder and would've gotten away with it, but she forgot she spent all night staging a fake break-in contradicting her story to the police about inviting him in through the front door.

It's weird the police never asked about this contradiction :boggled:
 
Knox blamed Patrick for the murder and would've gotten away with it, but she forgot she spent all night staging a fake break-in contradicting her story to the police about inviting him in through the front door.

It's weird the police never asked about this contradiction :boggled:

Don't forget she also spent all night cleaning up Sollecito's and her DNA, fingerprints, etc from Kercher's bedroom while leaving multiple and varied forensic evidence of Guede in the bedroom, hallway, and bathrooms. I guess Knox figured that would somehow magically match Lumumba.
 
Here are some general points about the ECHR and its judgments, Italy, and the ECHR case Knox v. Italy that are relevant:

Italy is a founding member of the Council of Europe (CoE) and thus has signed a treaty stating that it will obey the European Convention on Human Rights and the final judgments of the European Court of Human Rights.

Specifically, Italy and the other member states are the Council of Europe are bound by their agreement to "secure to everyone within their jurisdiction the rights and freedoms defined in Section I of this Convention" (stated in Article 1 of the Convention). Each member state of the Council of Europe, including Italy, is bound "to abide by the final judgment of the Court in any case to which" it is a party (Article 46). The Committee of Ministers (CoM) of the CoE supervises the CoE states, including Italy, in their execution of the judgments of the ECHR.

According to CoE/CoM/ECHR statistics, the CoM considers that Italy has successfully completed execution of 3947 out of 4182 judgments (94.4%) as of 31 December 2018. Thus, Italy has been generally faithful to its obligation to abide by the final judgments of the ECHR. Acknowledging the role that the Italian Constitution gives to the ECHR in Italian law, the Italian Constitutional Court, in its judgment 113 of 2011, stated that the Italian revision trial procedure may be requested on the basis of a final judgment of the ECHR.

The judgment in the ECHR case Knox v. Italy was published 24 January 2019. Because Italy has requested a referral of the case to the Grand Chamber, the judgment is not yet final. The Grand Chamber Panel will review the referral request, along with others, and publish their result, most likely, in July, 2019, although an earlier or later date cannot be ruled out. The Chamber judgment will become final on the day that the Grand Chamber Panel publishes the rejection of that request, if indeed it does reject it. If the Grand Chamber Panel accepts the request, the Grand Chamber will most likely hold a public hearing on the case and in due time (meaning about 1 to 2 years after the publication of the acceptance) issue a judgment that will become final on the day of its publication.

The opinions expressed in anonymous internet posts on the case are not at all in the least likely to have any influence on the ECHR decision-making, which is based on the Convention, its case-law, and, when applicable, other international human rights laws.

Because most (about 95%, according to the ECHR) requests for referral are rejected, it is likely that the GC Panel will reject the referral request for Knox v. Italy. However, if the Panel perceives that the case has some exceptional bearing with respect to the Convention and ECHR case-law, or perhaps even if the Panel sees it as of exceptional interest because of the publicity the underlying case has received, the Panel will approve the request and the Grand Chamber will eventually publish a judgment. To be consistent with the ECHR's existing case-law, that judgment will be consistent with and include the Chamber's judgment findings of violations: Article 3 in the procedural limb, Article 6.1 with Article 6.3c, and Article 6.1 with Article 6.3e. The finding of other violations, such as of Article 3 in the substantive limb, is a possibility, but would require the GC to convince itself that there was sufficient evidence to make this inference.
 
One consideration for ECHR judgments is how they are enforced.

Enforcement is the obligation of the respondent state under the supervision of the Committee of {Foreign} Ministers of the Council of Europe, in accordance with the Convention. The detailed supervision is carried out by the Deputies of the Ministers and their staff.

When the Committee of Ministers votes affirming that a state has enacted or other put into place the measures - individual and general - required by a judgment, it closes its supervision of the ECHR case.

Here's Italy's performance on closing ECHR cases as determined by the CoM (as of 31 December 2018) in comparison to other large CoE states and one, Azerbaijan, that has been referred back to the ECHR by the CoM for consideration of whether it has failed to fulfill its obligations to abide by the judgment of the ECHR in a particular case.

It is clear that Italy, despite having a very high number of total cases, has done about as well in closing cases in a way that complies with the ECHR judgments, in the view of the CoM, as other large democracies such as the UK, France, Poland, and Germany.

Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that Italy will meet its obligations under the Convention when the judgment in Knox v. Italy becomes final.

Country *Closed **Total Cases **%
Italy *3947 **4182 **94.4

UK *428 **440 **97.3
France *988 **1020 **96.9
Poland *1532 **1652 **92.7
Germany *206 **224 **92.0
Turkey *2621 **3852 **68.0
Russia *978 **2550 **38.4
Ukraine *527 **1437 **36.7
Azerbaijan *21 **207 **10.1

Source for CoM data: Factsheets on Execution of Judgments by Country
https://www.coe.int/en/web/execution/country-factsheets
 
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One consideration for ECHR judgments is how they are enforced.

Enforcement is the obligation of the respondent state under the supervision of the Committee of {Foreign} Ministers of the Council of Europe, in accordance with the Convention. The detailed supervision is carried out by the Deputies of the Ministers and their staff.

When the Committee of Ministers votes affirming that a state has enacted or other put into place the measures - individual and general - required by a judgment, it closes its supervision of the ECHR case.

Here's Italy's performance on closing ECHR cases as determined by the CoM (as of 31 December 2018) in comparison to other large CoE states and one, Azerbaijan, that has been referred back to the ECHR by the CoM for consideration of whether it has failed to fulfill its obligations to abide by the judgment of the ECHR in a particular case.

It is clear that Italy, despite having a very high number of total cases, has done about as well in closing cases in a way that complies with the ECHR judgments, in the view of the CoM, as other large democracies such as the UK, France, Poland, and Germany.

Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that Italy will meet its obligations under the Convention when the judgment in Knox v. Italy becomes final.

Country *Closed **Total Cases **%
Italy *3947 **4182 **94.4

UK *428 **440 **97.3
France *988 **1020 **96.9
Poland *1532 **1652 **92.7
Germany *206 **224 **92.0
Turkey *2621 **3852 **68.0
Russia *978 **2550 **38.4
Ukraine *527 **1437 **36.7
Azerbaijan *21 **207 **10.1

Source for CoM data: Factsheets on Execution of Judgments by Country
https://www.coe.int/en/web/execution/country-factsheets



What leaps out (once again) from those statistics is the actual absolute volume of cases where the ECHR has ruled against Italy. It's an order of magnitude higher than UK or Germany, both of whom have bigger populations than Italy's. And it even looks dreadful compared with Turkey or Russia - which is saying something indeed...

And I'd strongly suggest that this massive disparity in turn implies far, far higher levels of institutionalised failings in the Italian criminal justice system. Which many of us have proposed and discussed within these threads over the years. And which almost certainly manifested themselves in the way that Knox (in particular) and Sollecito were mistreated by the police, PM and courts.
 
At the risk of repetition, it may be useful to emphasize one issue that some may find confusing.

When the ECHR uses the terms "suspect" or "accused" it defines those terms "autonomously" - that is, using it own meaning, which goes beyond the "formal" definition which may be used in a state's legal system.

First, a brief review of the relevant Italian law and the way it was apparently applied to Amanda Knox.

In the Italian legal system, according to the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure (Codice di Procedura Penale, CPP), a person becomes a formal suspect when a prosecutor records that person's name as a suspect in a crime in the log book reserved for such records. However, the CPP also recognizes that a person under questioning may be or become a suspect without such a recording.

CPP Article 63 provides, in a first case, that a person questioned as a witness happens to make an incriminating statement, that person becomes a suspect because of that statement as soon as that statement is uttered. Thus, according to that law, the questioning must be stopped, the person must be informed that investigations may be launched against him and that he is advised of his right to get a lawyer. His incriminating statement (which was made without a lawyer or the legally required warnings, including among others of his right to remain silent) may not be used against him, according to that law.

CPP Article 63 also provides, in a second case, for the possibility that the person being questioned as a witness should actually have been considered a suspect (but was not formally a suspect) from the beginning of questioning and, therefore, should have been questioned as a suspect: that is, in the presence of a lawyer and with the legally required warnings. In this case, if the person questioned makes an incriminating statement, the same actions must be taken by the authorities conducting the questioning as in the first case. However, in this second case, no statement from the questioning may be used against the person question nor any other person.

In the Knox case, the Gemelli CSC panel applied this CPP Article 63 to her 6 November 2007 interrogation statements, for the charges of murder and rape. Thus, the 1:45 am statement could not be used against Knox, and the 5:45 am statement could not be used against Knox or anyone else.

However, for the criminal charge of calunnia, the Gemelli CSC panel apparently allowed both of Knox's statements to be used against her. Gemelli did not (as far as I can tell) cite the jurisprudence (case-law) of the CSC regarding this decision, but rather invoked Memoriale 1, as a defensive document written by Knox of her own volition after the questioning, as bringing her interrogation statements into play. The Italian government, however, in its responses to the ECHR, apparently only invoked the general jurisprudence of the CSC as justifying the use of Knox's statement against her for the criminal charge of calunnia.

Now for the ECHR's definition of "suspect" based on its case-law. It is this definition which must be considered as applicable to all states of the Council of Europe, including Italy.

110. The protections afforded by Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 apply to a person subject to a “criminal charge”, within the autonomous Convention meaning of that term. A “criminal charge” exists from the moment that an individual is officially notified by the competent authority of an allegation that he has committed a criminal offence, or from the point at which his situation has been substantially affected by actions taken by the authorities as a result of a suspicion against him (see Deweer v. Belgium, 27 February 1980, §§ 42-46, Series A no. 35; Eckle v. Germany, 15 July 1982, § 73, Series A no. 51; McFarlane v. Ireland [GC], no. 31333/06, § 143, 10 September 2010; and, more recently, Ibrahim and Others v. the United Kingdom [GC], nos. 50541/08 and 3 others, § 249, ECHR 2016).

111. Thus, for example, a person arrested on suspicion of having committed a criminal offence (see, among other authorities, Heaney and McGuinness v. Ireland, no. 34720/97, § 42, ECHR 2000‑XII, and Brusco v. France, no. 1466/07, §§ 47-50, 14 October 2010), a suspect questioned about his involvement in acts constituting a criminal offence (see Aleksandr Zaichenko v. Russia, no. 39660/02, §§ 41-43, 18 February 2010; Yankov and Others v. Bulgaria, no. 4570/05, § 23, 23 September 2010; and Ibrahim and Others, cited above, § 296) and a person who has been formally charged, under a procedure set out in domestic law, with a criminal offence (see, among many other authorities, Pélissier and Sassi v. France [GC], no. 25444/94, § 66, ECHR 1999‑II, and Pedersen and Baadsgaard v. Denmark [GC], no. 49017/99, § 44, ECHR 2004‑XI) can all be regarded as being “charged with a criminal offence” and claim the protection of Article 6 of the Convention. It is the actual occurrence of the first of the aforementioned events, regardless of their {recorded?} chronological order, which triggers the application of Article 6 in its criminal aspect.

Source: SIMEONOVI v. BULGARIA [GC] 21980/04 12/05/2017

37. The Court .... recalls in this regard its consistent jurisprudence that the concepts of "criminal charge", "accused of an offense" or "accused" in paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of Article 6 of the Convention must be 'to be understood as having an 'autonomous' scope in the context of the Convention, and not on the basis of their meaning in domestic law (Adolf, cited above, § 30, Simeonovi v. Bulgaria [GC], No. 21980/04, §§ 110-111, May 12, 2017). The prominent place that the right to a fair trial occupies in a democratic society argues for a "material" rather than "formal" conception of the "accusation" governed by Article 6 of the Convention; it directs the Court to look beyond appearances and to analyze the realities of the proceedings at issue as to whether there was an "accusation" for the purposes of Article 6 of the Convention (Adolf, cited above, ibid.).

Source: STIRMANOV v. RUSSIA 31816/08 29/01/2019
(Translated from the French by Google with my help.)

Thus, for Knox v. Italy, the ECHR "raises the question" but does not explicitly rule whether Knox was already a suspect (by its definition) at the beginning of the 5/6 November 2007 interrogations. On the other hand, it points out that Knox was certainly a suspect following her first (1:45 am) statement, that is during the interrogation session that produced the 5:45 am statement. In this last ruling, the Chamber judgment conservatively avoids a thorough investigation of the circumstances of the first interrogation while maintaining agreement with the Gemelli CSC panel judgment. However, the ECHR case-law does not allow the use of a statement made without a lawyer to serve as the sole evidence in a criminal conviction, even when the alleged crime is the statement itself.
 
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What leaps out (once again) from those statistics is the actual absolute volume of cases where the ECHR has ruled against Italy. It's an order of magnitude higher than UK or Germany, both of whom have bigger populations than Italy's. And it even looks dreadful compared with Turkey or Russia - which is saying something indeed...

And I'd strongly suggest that this massive disparity in turn implies far, far higher levels of institutionalised failings in the Italian criminal justice system. Which many of us have proposed and discussed within these threads over the years. And which almost certainly manifested themselves in the way that Knox (in particular) and Sollecito were mistreated by the police, PM and courts.

The number of cases reflects not only the number of applications from each state on a yearly basis but also the year that the Convention became effective for that state by its domestic legal acceptance of entry into force of the Convention.

These dates were: UK, 1953; Germany, 1953; Turkey, 1954; Italy, 1955; France, 1974; Poland, 1993; Ukraine, 1997; Russia, 1998; and Azerbaijan, 2002.

While I agree that Italy has a poor record considering the very large number of cases generated, the relatively high percentage closed suggests that ultimately it can modify its official behavior to more closely conform to international legal standards for human rights.
 
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When an ECHR judgment becomes final, that "final judgment of the Court shall be transmitted to the Committee of Ministers, which shall supervise its execution" (Convention Article 46, paragraph 2).

Thus, either the Chamber judgment in Knox v. Italy, if the request for referral is rejected by the Grand Chamber Panel, or, if the request for referral is accepted by the GC Panel, a Grand Chamber judgment in Knox v. Italy, will be sent to the CoM for their supervision of the execution of the judgment.

Based on the facts, ECHR case-law, and the reasoning of the Chamber judgment, if there is a Grand Chamber judgment, it will likely be identical to the Chamber judgment or a modification that includes at a minimum a finding of the same violations by Italy.

The Committee of Ministers, including their Deputies, who with a staff manage the supervision of the execution of judgments, have a set of rules including the following relevant provisions:

II. Supervision of the execution of judgments

Rule 6
Information to the Committee of Ministers on the execution of the judgment

1. When, in a judgment transmitted to the Committee of Ministers in accordance with Article 46, paragraph 2, of the Convention, the Court has decided that there has been a violation of the Convention or its protocols and/or has awarded just satisfaction to the injured party under Article 41 of the Convention, the Committee shall invite the High Contracting Party {that is, the CoE member state} concerned to inform it of the measures which the High Contracting Party has taken or intends to take in consequence of the judgment, having regard to its obligation to abide by it under Article 46, paragraph 1, of the Convention.

2. When supervising the execution of a judgment by the High Contracting Party concerned, pursuant to Article 46, paragraph 2, of the Convention, the Committee of Ministers shall examine:

a. whether any just satisfaction awarded by the Court has been paid, including as the case may be, default interest; and

b. if required, and taking into account the discretion of the High Contracting Party concerned to choose the means necessary to comply with the judgment, whether:

i. individual measures[2] have been taken to ensure that the violation has ceased and that the injured party is put, as far as possible, in the same situation as that party enjoyed prior to the violation of the Convention;

ii. general measures[3] have been adopted, preventing new violations similar to that or those found or putting an end to continuing violations.

Rule 7
Control intervals

1. Until the High Contracting Party concerned has provided information on the payment of the just satisfaction awarded by the Court or concerning possible individual measures, the case shall be placed on the agenda of each human rights meeting of the Committee of Ministers, unless the Committee decides otherwise.

2. If the High Contracting Party concerned informs the Committee of Ministers that it is not yet in a position to inform the Committee that the general measures necessary to ensure compliance with the judgment have been taken, the case shall be placed again on the agenda of a meeting of the Committee of Ministers taking place no more than six months later, unless the Committee decides otherwise; the same rule shall apply when this period expires and for each subsequent period.

[2] For instance, the striking out of an unjustified criminal conviction from the criminal records, the granting of a residence permit or the re-opening of impugned domestic proceedings (see on this latter point Recommendation Rec(2000)2 of the Committee of Ministers to member states on the re-examination or reopening of certain cases at domestic level following judgments of the European Court of Human Rights, adopted on 19 January 2000 at the 694th meeting of the Ministers’ Deputies).

[3] For instance, legislative or regulatory amendments, changes of case law or administrative practice or publication of the Court’s judgment in the language of the respondent state and its dissemination to the authorities concerned.

Source: https://search.coe.int/cm/Pages/result_details.aspx?ObjectId=09000016806dd2a5
 
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Wow. Mignini must be an extremely fragile soul, easily led.

Then again, Mignini was clear. In the Netflix doc, he used whole, unedited sentences. He clearly said that what convinced him on the first day that the killer had been female was because of the duvet.

Deal with it. Quit trying to protect him from himself.

Mignini, Giobbi, Napoleoni, etc., all made numerous comments long before the Netflix documentary was ever conceived, that confirms Amanda and Raffaele were suspects well before the interrogations of 5/6 Nov.

Just another one of Vixen's typical diversions when she knows she can't defend a position. Some things never change.
 
Mignini, Giobbi, Napoleoni, etc., all made numerous comments long before the Netflix documentary was ever conceived, that confirms Amanda and Raffaele were suspects well before the interrogations of 5/6 Nov.

Just another one of Vixen's typical diversions when she knows she can't defend a position. Some things never change.

At this point 11 1/2 years later, two things are glaringly obvious:

1) the cops and PM Mignini viewed the pair as suspects from the beginning.

2) the guilter-nutters alternated between agreeing with the cops - that the cops were right to suspect them from the beginning - but that neither were suspects until the end of the 1:45am interrogation, when Mignini quoted the section of Italy's code regarding suspects' rights.​
Even with that, neither Mignini nor the cops actually **delivered** on those rights.

This heavily suggests that that claimed transition between 1:45 am and what happened next, was not a transition at all..... it was more of the same.

Namely, the disregarding of Italian law with regard to the handling of suspects.

It turns out that with the Bonisegna report, as well as the ECHR ruling, that Sollecito, Knox, and innocentisi have been right all along.

All guilter-nutters have brought to this rodeo is conflagration and confusion, arguing either one of two conflicting things depending on the nutter-issue at any one time.
 
At this point 11 1/2 years later, two things are glaringly obvious:

1) the cops and PM Mignini viewed the pair as suspects from the beginning.

2) the guilter-nutters alternated between agreeing with the cops - that the cops were right to suspect them from the beginning - but that neither were suspects until the end of the 1:45am interrogation, when Mignini quoted the section of Italy's code regarding suspects' rights.​
Even with that, neither Mignini nor the cops actually **delivered** on those rights.

This heavily suggests that that claimed transition between 1:45 am and what happened next, was not a transition at all..... it was more of the same.

Namely, the disregarding of Italian law with regard to the handling of suspects.

It turns out that with the Bonisegna report, as well as the ECHR ruling, that Sollecito, Knox, and innocentisi have been right all along.

All guilter-nutters have brought to this rodeo is conflagration and confusion, arguing either one of two conflicting things depending on the nutter-issue at any one time.


Totally.

And actually one need look no further than interpreter co-interrogator Donnino's court testimony for rock-solid evidence that the police MUST have suspected Knox of a serious criminal offence before she first made the infamous verbal "confession/accusation". After all, Donnino testified that she "helped" Knox to believe that she (Knox) might be suffering from from some form of traumatic amnesia. And that in turn clearly implies that the police were telling Knox that they didn't believe her then-version of events - that she'd spent the whole of that evening/night together with Sollecito in his apartment. And that in turn clearly implies that the police suspected at the very least that Knox might be lying to protect a perpetrator (a serious criminal offence in and of itself).

And when you add to that the well-established evidence (again supported by Donnino's testimony) that the police had interpreted the now-infamous "see you later" text message as an arrangement by Knox to meet up with the message's recipient - Lumumba - that same evening, it simply adds further weight still to the conclusion that the police most definitely suspected Knox of one or other serious criminal offence well before she first "crumbled" (TM Perugia chief of police de Felice) and "blurted out" (TM many of the pro-guilt community) her verbal accusation against Lumumba and incrimination of herself.


(As a marginal aside, I just recalled the risible pro-guilt claim of yesteryear - as espoused by Stilicho for examply IIRC - that the police had "barely had time to set the chairs out in the interview room" when Knox made her verbal confession/accusation.......... :rolleyes:)
 
Because most (about 95%, according to the ECHR) requests for referral are rejected, it is likely that the GC Panel will reject the referral request for Knox v. Italy. However, if the Panel perceives that the case has some exceptional bearing with respect to the Convention and ECHR case-law, or perhaps even if the Panel sees it as of exceptional interest because of the publicity the underlying case has received, the Panel will approve the request and the Grand Chamber will eventually publish a judgement.
Having said that we still don't know whether Italy's luck has run out in this case, or if they'll come up again with a salmon in their mouth. This case has been such a roller-coaster of euphoric highs to devastating lows it's virtually impossible to tell where it's all going to end. My general impression is that Italy just can't let Amanda Knox go to the point of obsession. It seems as though it's become a point of national honour.

Hoots
 
The most interesting thing that I've learned about this case is that it's given me an insight into the national psyche of Italy and particularly the concepts of honour, dietrologia and the apparent willingness to deceive themselves, and others, and to accommodate it comfortably in the Italian mindset with tranquil eloquence. It seems that Italy is capable of moral gymnastics that are incongruous with the British sense of fair play. The concept of who tells the best story, then being transformed into a judicial fact is mind-boggling. It's virtually impossible to imagine a case like this happening in Scotland, it's just too ridiculous. No-one would take it seriously.

Hoots
 
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Having said that we still don't know whether Italy's luck has run out in this case, or if they'll come up again with a salmon in their mouth. This case has been such a roller-coaster of euphoric highs to devastating lows it's virtually impossible to tell where it's all going to end. My general impression is that Italy just can't let Amanda Knox go to the point of obsession. It seems as though it's become a point of national honour.

Hoots

As far as I can understand, the salmon is a delay in Italy having to produce an "action plan" (the ECHR/CoM terminology) for how to redress their violations of Knox's rights.

The delay may be as short as about 3 months (assuming that the Grand Chamber Panel rejects the request for referral as soon as July, 2019) from the Chamber judgment's original date of finalization (24 April 2019), or it may be as long as about 2 years (assuming the GC Panel accepts the request for referral, which would require the Grand Chamber to issue a judgment).

The Grand Chamber may keep the substance of the Chamber judgment intact or the GC may modify it. I believe that if the GC should modify it, the modification would not be in Italy's favor.
 
The most interesting thing that I've learned about this case is that it's given me an insight into the national psyche of Italy and particularly the concepts of honour, dietrologia and the apparent willingness to deceive themselves, and others, and to accommodate it comfortably in the Italian mindset with tranquil eloquence. It seems that Italy is capable of moral gymnastics that are incongruous with the British sense of fair play. The concept of who tells the best story, then being transformed into a judicial fact is mind-boggling. It's virtually impossible to imagine a case like this happening in Scotland, it's just too ridiculous. No-one would take it seriously.

Hoots

LondonJohn said:
And when you add to that the well-established evidence (again supported by Donnino's testimony) that the police had interpreted the now-infamous "see you later" text message as an arrangement by Knox to meet up with the message's recipient - Lumumba - that same evening, it simply adds further weight still to the conclusion that the police most definitely suspected Knox of one or other serious criminal offence well before she first "crumbled" (TM Perugia chief of police de Felice) and "blurted out" (TM many of the pro-guilt community) her verbal accusation against Lumumba and incrimination of herself.


(As a marginal aside, I just recalled the risible pro-guilt claim of yesteryear - as espoused by Stilicho for examply IIRC - that the police had "barely had time to set the chairs out in the interview room" when Knox made her verbal confession/accusation.......... )

Ok, it's time to open the vault with blasts from the past.

Not only did Stilicho claim that the interrogators had barely taken their seats before Knox was naming Lumumba.....

Not only did author John Follain spend all of 2 pages on the interrogation (with no mention of Anna Donnino AT ALL!), and make it seem that Knox had blurted out Lumumba's name as a way to stop all the good treatment, all the those biscuits and gallons of chamomile tea....

There were other items of dietrology which guilter-nutters spun into judicial fact.

In this forum, Machiavelli discussed at length that Knox had not been sleep deprived, but that he could prove that she'd gone into the Nov 5/6 interrogation fully rested with a plan to pull the wool over the cops' eyes.

No matter that Knox had not slept Nov 2, 3, or 4th.... Machiavelli "knew" from observation that Knox needed no sleep.

Not only that, Machiavelli defended Donnino's self-described role (not as an interpreter, but) as a mediator. Machiavelli took it one step further - Donnino had been a diplomat. And, acc. to Machiavelli, appropriately so. Anyone who claimed otherwise just did know the hidden meaning of things.... the dietrology which is behind all things Italian. The best story, a story available only to the initiate.

And remember, Machiavelli solved the problem of Knox/Sollecito going to the Questura that night - suspects? or persons-informed-of-the-facts? - by inventing a judicial concept which he put as, "almost a suspect". It was that grey area in which Knox could be treated as a suspect, but not to the point where guaranteed rights kicked in.

If I wanted to bother, I'd search ISF/JREF for the quotes. They are now safely stored in the vault.
 
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As far as I can understand, the salmon is a delay in Italy having to produce an "action plan" (the ECHR/CoM terminology) for how to redress their violations of Knox's rights.

The delay may be as short as about 3 months (assuming that the Grand Chamber Panel rejects the request for referral as soon as July, 2019) from the Chamber judgment's original date of finalization (24 April 2019), or it may be as long as about 2 years (assuming the GC Panel accepts the request for referral, which would require the Grand Chamber to issue a judgment).

The Grand Chamber may keep the substance of the Chamber judgment intact or the GC may modify it. I believe that if the GC should modify it, the modification would not be in Italy's favor.



I have to agree. I'd also add that I very much suspect that a supranational court focussing on a relatively narrow remit, as is the ECHR, is significantly more likely to make non-reversible decisions than, say, a first-instance national criminal court, or even a national court of appeal. The ECHR deals with rights-violation applications exclusively, day in and day out; by now, it has established both sufficient case law and sufficient combined expertise/experience in these areas to be able to enforce the European Convention on Human Rights with authority, fairness and consistency.
 
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