Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

[Vixen]

What the ruling classes really think of the Brexit Party.

Whilst the tabloids are crowing in the most vulgar terms 'deliver Brexit now', it is always useful to turn to the FINANCIAL TIMES for what the British establishment/capitalists think. We see that they are not impressed with the Brexit Party at all. Their main headline is 'EU turnout is up' and a large piece on remainer Philip Hammond warning against a no-deal Brexit. No sign of our Nigel anywhere.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-48417214

 

[Francesca R]

The idea that "Labour party voters are mostly remainers" is a complete myth.

Your last sentence is the wrong way round I think

 

[Vixen]

On the contrary, the YouGov/Times poll of 12-16 May showed that of those intending to vote Labour on Thursday, 75% backed Remain, and in fact the same percentage had previously voted that way at the Referendum. Labour voters who backed a Hard Leave were already intending to vote Brexit Ltd or UKIP, but they were only around 6% of those who intended to vote Labour at the next General Election; in contrast around 25% intended to vote for the Lib-Dems, Greens, Change UK, SNP, or Plaid Cymru on Thursday.

The bottom line is that the fear of Labour losing support in majority Leave areas appears to be totally false, because most of the people in those constituencies who voted Leave had never voted for Labour previously, anyway. The idea that "Labour party voters are mostly remainers" is a complete myth.

One suspects the people who bother to answer the YouGov polls are the very Islington chattering class Labour supporters named Ken or Tony.

 

[Francesca R]

Islington chattering class

Hey . . . (Points at location. Also notes that Lib Dem won in her borough)

 

[Vixen]

Hey . . . (Points at location. Also notes that Lib Dem won in her borough)

Voters in the People's Republic of Islington - and indeed, Camden - are protesting against the Labour leadership's failure to offer a second referendum.

There is little doubt North London labour voters are strong remainers. Not typical of Labour voters as a whole. (Unionised workers who want to keep out cheaper East European labour and thus anti-remain.)

 

[Information Analyst]

Your last sentence is the wrong way round I think

Indeed. Forgot that the quoted statement was being disagreed with by the poster.

 

[Information Analyst]

One suspects the people who bother to answer the YouGov polls are the very Islington chattering class Labour supporters named Ken or Tony.

Yes, because that's totally how polls work...

 

[Information Analyst]

Voters in the People's Republic of Islington - and indeed, Camden - are protesting against the Labour leadership's failure to offer a second referendum.

London as a whole just returned three Lib-Dems and one Green MEPs, one Labour, and one Brexit Ltd. Most Londoners do not fit your snobbish stereotype.

There is little doubt North London labour voters are strong remainers. Not typical of Labour voters as a whole. (Unionised workers who want to keep out cheaper East European labour and thus anti-remain.)

Already shown to be false. The idea that unionised workers are still a significant force is also rather quaint.

 

[Francesca R]

Actually two Labour and two Brexit

 

[Vixen]

London as a whole just returned three Lib-Dems and one Green MEPs, one Labour, and one Brexit Ltd. Most Londoners do not fit your snobbish stereotype.



Already shown to be false. The idea that unionised workers are still a significant force is also rather quaint.

Labour -the richest of all the parties -enjoys £10m per annum from the unions.

Why do you think Corbyn is so careful not to upset 'the workers' by being pro-Brexit?

 

[The Don]

Labour -the richest of all the parties -enjoys £10m per annum from the unions.

Why do you think Corbyn is so careful not to upset 'the workers' by being pro-Brexit?

Jeremy Corbyn has been anti-EU his entire career which is why his toeing the party line over supporting the Remain campaign came across as being so false. His pro-Brexit stance is not motivated by keeping the workers or unions on side - not least because many of the major unions are por-Remain

 

[Vixen]

Jeremy Corbyn has been anti-EU his entire career which is why his toeing the party line over supporting the Remain campaign came across as being so false. His pro-Brexit stance is not motivated by keeping the workers or unions on side - not least because many of the major unions are por-Remain

Therein lies the paradox. Corbyn is anti-capitalist. Most labour voters are not.

ETA to expand on this most socialists see the EU as a union of capitalists determined to (a) bring down the price of labour and raw materials (b) thereby maximise profits for the capitalist employers and corporations.

Corbyn is anti-EU as he sees British workers' wages undermined by the appearance of cheap labour from East Europe.

Hence his insistence in drawing up protection for workers rights after Brexit, which Theresa May had somehow omitted to include.

 

[Information Analyst]

Actually two Labour and two Brexit

Ugh! I really should have got more sleep last night....

 

[Garrison]

Jeremy Corbyn has been anti-EU his entire career which is why his toeing the party line over supporting the Remain campaign came across as being so false. His pro-Brexit stance is not motivated by keeping the workers or unions on side - not least because many of the major unions are por-Remain

Yes. Every step of the way he's given grudging lip service to Labour's official policy while doing everything in his power to undermine it. His invisibility during the referendum, his refusal to endorse a second referendum or indeed to leap on the many flaws in the conduct of the original referendum is all of a piece with someone willing to let Brexit go ahead while trying to let the Tories take the blame. He must know that the Labour MPs and members are weighted in favour of Remain or he would have tried to change party policy by now.

 

[Nessie]

No it isn't. See above. The numbers are obviously in Remain's favour, even with your 50/50 Tory and 75/25 Labour Remain/Hard Leave split.

I am not talking about the split between remain and hard leave. I am talking about the split amongst those who do want to leave between a soft and hard brexit.

 

[Nessie]

I think you need to post your calculations backing this up.

There are various splits, this one has 40.4% remain, 34.9% hard brexit and then 23.2% Con/Lab.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xit-what-uk-european-election-results-tell-us

The soft brexit vote is primarily within the 23.2% Con/Lab vote. There will also be some who are either leave or remain, but who chose to vote for their preferred party.

I think there may be enough leavers who voted Con/Lab to make a second referendum too close to call. You need to add the hard and soft brexit vote to see what the leave vote is.

 

[Information Analyst]

There are various splits, this one has 40.4% remain, 34.9% hard brexit and then 23.2% Con/Lab.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xit-what-uk-european-election-results-tell-us

The soft brexit vote is primarily within the 23.2% Con/Lab vote. There will also be some who are either leave or remain, but who chose to vote for their preferred party.

I think there may be enough leavers who voted Con/Lab to make a second referendum too close to call. You need to add the hard and soft brexit vote to see what the leave vote is.

The problem there is the assumption that people currently apparently backing a Deal/Soft Brexit would still choose Leave in another in/out referendum, even assuming they did that last time around. The whole point about them wanting a deal is that they recognise - just as much as Remainers - that a No Deal Brexit will be detrimental to the country. Given a choice between No Deal and Remain, many will chose the latter.

 

[Nessie]

I was hoping that with all the vastly improved knowledge of the EU and what is likely to happen if we leave (under various scenarios), that support for leave parties would collapse and there would be a clear majority voting for remain parties.

That has not happened. If there was another referendum there would not be a clear majority.

I think that means we should accept the original referendum and just get on with leaving. My preference would be a deal, but that has proved impossible to achieve.

I think that means we should just leave with no deal and then try to negotiate a new relationship with the EU.

I feel very sorry for those who will suffer most, particularly those who will likely lose their jobs. But, since that suffering has not been enough to cause a shift to a clear majority for remaining, I think democracy has to prevail so as to be preserved.

 

[catsmate]

Voters in the People's Republic of Islington - and indeed, Camden - are protesting against the Labour leadership's failure to offer a second referendum.

There is little doubt North London labour voters are strong remainers. Not typical of Labour voters as a whole. (Unionised workers who want to keep out cheaper East European labour and thus anti-remain.)

Oh good grief.

 

[catsmate]

Labour -the richest of all the parties -enjoys £10m per annum from the unions.

Is there no end to your ignorance of matters political?