Trans Women are not Women

[Roboramma]

Meanwhile, how would you even know you're being ogled by a gay man, unless you're in a gay pub or club where it might be assumed that a single man could well be looking for some action?

When I was in San Fransisco last year I joined a public pool. After swimming I went to the sauna and one dude was sort of staring at me. Then I go for a shower and he tried to follow me into the shower. They were individual stalls and I latched the door so it ended when the door didn't open, but that was a little weird.

I also got catcalled from some guys while walking down the street a few times. One time I was waiting for a light to change to cross the street and a guy just straight up propositioned me. That was weird too. Actually it gave me a little window into what women tend to go through every day of their lives, except that while it was weird I was never bothered because I didn't feel physically intimidated. But imagining a woman in the exact same situation I could see things being very different.

 

[Puppycow]

Fair enough. I think that wiki definition is far too non encompassing of a phenomenon that exists and is common and not necessarily distressing to anybody. I would also say that the fantasy you describe is autogynaephilia

But I acknowledge I will not get anywhere trying to re-write convention.

Sure, but that means that it is not a phenomenon that is unique to transexuals, as Blanchard's theory seems too imply. It's also something that biological women can experience.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

I'd say that the nearest a hetero male (and homophobe) like me can get to feeling how women do when they receive unwanted attention from men is indeed, as has been suggested, getting the same from homosexual men,

They seem to go about it in exactly the same way as their hetero, male sexist pig counterparts, using 'risque' jokes, shoehorning innuendo or even explicit sexual references into converation, etc'. When I was very young it used to freak me out somewhat, now I'll usually snort derisively or tell them they're not my type.

 

[Belz...]

I'd say that the nearest a hetero male (and homophobe) like me can get to feeling how women do when they receive unwanted attention from men is indeed, as has been suggested, getting the same from homosexual men,

They seem to go about it in exactly the same way as their hetero, male sexist pig counterparts, using 'risque' jokes, shoehorning innuendo or even explicit sexual references into converation, etc'. When I was very young it used to freak me out somewhat, now I'll usually snort derisively or tell them they're not my type.

One wonders why you'd either be afraid of or hate homosexuals. They seem harmless enough.

 

[GlennB]

When I was in San Fransisco last year I joined a public pool. After swimming I went to the sauna and one dude was sort of staring at me. Then I go for a shower and he tried to follow me into the shower. They were individual stalls and I latched the door so it ended when the door didn't open, but that was a little weird.

I also got catcalled from some guys while walking down the street a few times. One time I was waiting for a light to change to cross the street and a guy just straight up propositioned me. That was weird too. Actually it gave me a little window into what women tend to go through every day of their lives, except that while it was weird I was never bothered because I didn't feel physically intimidated. But imagining a woman in the exact same situation I could see things being very different.

Aye. In all my years I've only been 'propositioned' twice by men, both times in a gay pub in London, and both times the encounter was 'polite' for want of a better word. Never cat-called or wolf-whistled by the male oafs up the scaffolding on the building site, never groped by a man on the bus or train.

Women put up with far more crap in this regard than men do, and I can see no good reason to allow self-certified 'women' into female safe spaces to add, perhaps massively, to that crap.

 

[Rolfe]

Sure, but that means that it is not a phenomenon that is unique to transexuals, as Blanchard's theory seems too imply. It's also something that biological women can experience.

Point of information. Only a minority of men with autogynaephilia progress as far as wanting to transition. Blanchard himself has discussed setting up support services for men who want to manage their autogynaephilia without putting their marriages in jeopardy or progressing to transition.

It's not something women can experience. That's like saying most women are homosexual because they're aroused by the thought of sex with a man (the definition of homosexuality in males). Autoandrophilia (the female equivalent) doesn't seem to exist or if it does it's not something that drives females to transition. (There is a very similar phenomenon, where a woman desires to participate in male homosexual sex as a male, which does drive transition though, and the distinction is quite fine.)

 

[Puppycow]

Point of information. Only a minority of men with autogynaephilia progress as far as wanting to transition. Blanchard himself has discussed setting up support services for men who want to manage their autogynaephilia without putting their marriages in jeopardy or progressing to transition.

It's not something women can experience. That's like saying most women are homosexual because they're aroused by the thought of sex with a man (the definition of homosexuality in males). Autoandrophilia (the female equivalent) doesn't seem to exist or if it does it's not something that drives females to transition. (There is a very similar phenomenon, where a woman desires to participate in male homosexual sex as a male, which does drive transition though, and the distinction is quite fine.)

And yet, FtM transgender people exist, and apparently (given recent trends) in even greater numbers lately. What does Blanchard's theory have to say about them? As far as I can tell, he doesn't even address the topic of FtM. My question is, not that "autogynaephilia" exists, but whether it is what causes gender dysphoria.

 

[tyr_13]

In your own words, please?

Well, no. You don't accept the answer I've given, won't clarify with context, and experience says you'll probably just dismiss it anyway as 'all about the feeling' because self-reported feelings do factor in.

Look, I said it was a typo. Sheesh. Can you now admit that I didn't do a "no, you"?

Well, no, because that was the trust of your reply. You denied (the 'no'), and turned the criticism around (the 'you!'). Yeah, I should have said 'you are'.

You could read on the diagnostic criteria, but as you're unwilling to do that, well, not much point in trying to get more nuanced than that.

Suppose all they asked for was "no dicks out" (for Harambe or otherwise) in the ladies changing rooms / ponds / etc.

That's actually super easy, yeah? Would you be okay with it?

That's not what they want though. In your hypothetical, there wouldn't be a need to invoke unscientific hypothesis that have no place in modern study.

But yes, I think most people would find that acceptable when everyone is acting in good faith.

snip

From there, a lot of people have jumped to, "See! Blanchard is a fraud! Totally discredited." Well, not so fast.

snip

What I think is clear, assuming we accept the data, is that Blanchard's descriptions of two categories is not an exhaustive description of all transgender people...

That right there totally discredits his hypothesis though. That, alone, means he's wrong.

Really? I don't think so. I think that would be unsafe.

At the least, it (autogynaephilia) fits many observations in an intuitive way. It is also highly plausible that many if not most males (not just self identifying trans women) would loathe the existence of this as a correct diagnosis, and be very keen to deny it and see it discredited.

So that's a green flag for acceptance and a big red one against rejection.

That makes the hypothesis unfalsifiable, and thus not scientific.

The existence of bisexual and asexual trans women cannot simply be dismissed because the hypothesis says they're all lying and/or delusional. Being insulting doesn't insulate a hypothesis.


And again, I'll point out that his ideas have not made it into treatments or panned out through other studies. And that, again, the opinions of some people self-identifying as skeptics here does not reflect the current science, and it won't effect it because it isn't supported by the evidence.

 

[tyr_13]

And yet, FtM transgender people exist, and apparently (given recent trends) in even greater numbers lately. What does Blanchard's theory have to say about them? As far as I can tell, he doesn't even address the topic of FtM. My question is, not that "autogynaephilia" exists, but whether it is what causes gender dysphoria.

Yes, this. I think people are forgetting that for Blanchard's hypothesis to be true, it has to cause people to become trans gender. And not just some of them, all trans women.

 

[theprestige]

One wonders why you'd either be afraid of or hate homosexuals. They seem harmless enough.

A lot of people are pretty squicked out by the idea of butt sex.

Plus, if there's one thing we can learn from transgenderism is that questions of sex and gender identity can be pretty close to the core of person's self image. If some men are deeply uncomfortable with the idea of being a man, surely some men are uncomfortable with the idea of *not* being a man.

Plus a whole host of other possibilities.

I try not to judge too harshly people who are uncomfortable about the idea of homosexuality.

Unless you're his therapist, it's probably none of your business why.

 

[d4m10n]

I think people are forgetting that for Blanchard's hypothesis to be true, [autogynaephilia] has to cause people to become trans gender. And not just some of them, all trans women.

I doubt Blanchard ever said that, given only a wiki level skim of his stuff.

 

[Puppycow]

Yes, this. I think people are forgetting that for Blanchard's hypothesis to be true, it has to cause people to become trans gender. And not just some of them, all trans women.

I doubt Blanchard ever said that, given only a wiki level skim of his stuff.

He said there are two categories, one is homosexual men, and the other is some kind of misplaced heterosexuality. In both cases, however, it seems to be motivated by adult male sexuality. I do think his theories are dated, and also don't account for the phenomenon in young children or in women very well.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

One wonders why you'd either be afraid of or hate homosexuals. They seem harmless enough.

You tell me. Hard-wired/instinct or pathology (as neo-liberals insist)? I'm not talking about finding gay men repellent but of the idea or suggestion of gay sex, which I do, being forced into my consciousness.

 

[theprestige]

You tell me. Hard-wired/instinct or pathology (as neo-liberals insist)? I'm not talking about finding gay men repellent but of the idea or suggestion of gay sex, which I do, being forced into my consciousness.

Slow your roll, bro. You're way out of your league here.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

One wonders why you'd either be afraid of or hate homosexuals. They seem harmless enough.

I assume you're male, and by the sound of it hetero? Have you been hit on much by typical, insatiably promiscuous homos? Maybe you're not as good-looking, lithe and athletic as I was (I confess I can't really be described thus at the age I am now)? I can tell you, in my late teens and even beyond it made me very uncomfortable, but as I got older the sheer presumptuousness just pissed me off.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Slow your roll, bro. You're way out of your league here.

No idea WTF you're saying.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

It just occurred to me a flash of realisation that, again when I was at an age of inexperience, I occasionally had to fend off what can only be described as aggressive advances by 'older women' that were completely unexpected/unsolicited, and they too were a bit freaky to my young, naive self. Maybe that too is how women of any age can be made to feel by unwanted male advances? ****, maybe women aren't the only recipients of unwanted, aggressive advances? Surely not?

 

[Roboramma]

Women put up with far more crap in this regard than men do, and I can see no good reason to allow self-certified 'women' into female safe spaces to add, perhaps massively, to that crap.

Yep, I’m with you on both of those points.

 

[Venom]

It just occurred to me a flash of realisation that, again when I was at an age of inexperience, I occasionally had to fend off what can only be described as aggressive advances by 'older women' that were completely unexpected/unsolicited, and they too were a bit freaky to my young, naive self. Maybe that too is how women of any age can be made to feel by unwanted male advances? ****, maybe women aren't the only recipients of unwanted, aggressive advances? Surely not?

You don't think you were more in control as a man than if you were a woman?
I think if I were a woman, lesbian or not, I'd feel a tad less safe in the presence of a man.

 

[TomB]

I understand the answer. I don't agree with it or find it useful though.

Dysphoria is unease or dissatisfaction. The counterpart to that is ease and satisfaction. The example (and let's not single out a forum member) is a male experiencing ease with the idea of being female. Which in fact he is not and can not be. However temporary, that seems to also be dis-ease about being male.

So it seems like the same thing to me. I don't think distress is always an issue. Technically, at the time when a man is highly interested in imagining himself to be female, he would be uninterested and "distressed" in that moment to think of himself as male. It might account for 0.05% of his waking hours and be immensely enjoyable and nothing else.

It seems to fit gender (actually sex) dysphoria to me, which can surely exist along a spectrum from "never causes any issue" to "significant problem" and in between

Actually yes there is, if that is either the origin or an inextricable part of the dysphoria. Doesn't mean that is always an association to be made.

No. If a man were fantasizing about being a woman he does not need to be distressed to think of himself as male. I'm a programmer and biologist. If I fantasize about being Indiana Jones I don't need to feel uncomfortable with my real life profession. Not even momentarily. Fantasizing about a different life does not necessarily imply discontent with your current life.