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Facebook bans far right groups

Not to derail this thread any further but I'd be curious to know your thoughts, or anyone's for that matter, on Mark Meechan (CountDankula) attempting to prank his girlfriend by secretly training her pug to do a "Nazi salute" and the resulting arrest and sentencing by the courts.

I appreciate humour and no subject should be off limits. Refreshing to see it from both sides in the political climate we find ourselves in.

It was an idiotic stunt that - as has been later shown - was an indicator of what the person who pulled it actually felt. It's a demonstration of the fact that "relax dude it's a joke" isn't a good defense.
 
It was an idiotic stunt that - as has been later shown - was an indicator of what the person who pulled it actually felt. It's a demonstration of the fact that "relax dude it's a joke" isn't a good defense.
And the thought police stikes again!
 
Not quite. The "free exchange of ideas" on racism didn't really exist at that time. What changed the attitudes of the past was a relatively small minority of people agitating for change, organizing marches and protests, stating sit-ins and get-out-the-vote campaign, and building up enough momentum to convince elected officials to push through anti-discrimination and anti-segregation legislation, legislation which was actively opposed by the majority in many communities.

Said opposition was very often brutal and bloody, and many people died trying to achieve said equality. Sitting around talking about it didn't do it, people going out and getting themselves killed trying to make a change did.

Racism isn't countered much by "the free exchange of ideas", because there really aren't any ideas to be exchanged from the racist's point of view, there is only emotion and rationalization. What counters racism most strongly is exposure to and interaction with other ethnicities, where one can experience the humanity of others, instead of merely being preached at about it. Racism, despite the justifications given for it, is ultimately based on fear, and only countering that fear with experience and exposure has any real effectiveness.

If you listen to a lot of the former neo-Nazis, those who have turned their back on other hate groups, and embraced a more progressive and less hateful outlook, one of the key factors was circumstances forcing them together with the objects of their hate. Not by "ideas" happening to drift by them while they were ensconced in their echo chambers.

One who did not live through or closely study those times tend to forget that nearly the entirety of American society was an echo chamber of sorts. Very little dissent and free speech was actually tolerated if it countered the jingoism, red-baiting, racist fear-mongering that dominated American culture at the time. The various media production codes, the red-scare witch-hunts, neighbors suspiciously spying on neighbors, and so on. It took work and blood to get to where we are today, not whinging about "free speech" and censorship.

To add to this:

You could say that the US had a "free exchange of ideas" during Reconstruction. We even had black Americans in both chambers of Congress. The counter wasn't so much "ideas" as it was white people marauding through black towns in the South, the abandonment of Reconstruction itself, the "Lily White Republican" movement, and eventually "Birth of a Nation" and the second KKK. This is similar to today's "free exchange" - which gave us white guys from around the US - and who had the money and time to travel - marching through a town screaming about the jews, beating a random black guy half to death, and plowing a car into a group of counter-protesters.

What worked was, as you said, people refusing to talk further, and to protest in front of cameras. Simply sitting quietly, marching in their Sunday's Best, was a massive affront to Jim-Crow style white supremacism - which is how we get all these images of black people simply walking around while white people around them are screaming in rage, setting fires, and going berserk. The photos were humiliating for white Southerners, but it put truth to the lie that they were somehow the superior ones.


I think what people are failing to understand is that actions like Facebook banning racist, terrorist, and similar group is doing is breaking up those very echo chambers.

The "free exchange of ideas" is only possibly where ideas are exchanged. Social media echo chambers do not allow said free exchange, and those who are engaged in those echo chambers are not about to go seeking out other ideas.

When I was in my 20s, I very nearly ended up going down what we would now call an "Incel" rabbit hole. What prevented me from doing so was having people around who made the effort to call me on my BS, and verbally slap some sense into me; combined with going out and actually spending time with people, women in particular, and learning through experience how and why I was wrong.

If I had had one of the contemporary Incel communities to reinforce my anger and fear, then I very likely would have ended up far, far worse and never gotten myself out of the negative headspace that enabled it.

As much as people maligned it, the study cited here got things absolutely correct - sites like Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube, by design, don't merely allow these echo chambers, they funnel people into these chambers. It's not at all difficult to go from some random topic, to Dave Rubin or Sargon of Akkad, to Milo, to Richard Spencer. Andy Warski and PewDiePie used to be this as well - PDP seems to be trying to break out of it, while Warski's now a joke. The remaining are all varying levels of scumbaggery - from Rubin's empty-headed nodding to Stephan Molyneux's phrenology to the genocidal end of the Nazi wannabe crowd. But in any case, one can simply let autoplay go and quickly end up dealing with some real genocidal ideas.

There's simply no equivalent to "gas the Jews" or "create a white ethnostate" on the left, mostly because Western governments crush such groups immediately, while they give Nazi wannabes a pass - again, Charolettesville was given plenty of evidence that the "Unite the Right" crowd were openly planning to attack people they saw as nonwhite, and let them proceed. Other examples include the clear media deference towards Dolt 45 up until 2017, or the long dismissal of terrorists as "lone wolves" even when they use the same talking points, from the same documents, that they read on the same sites. Remember the glowing "day in the life of the friendly white nationalist" pieces we saw in places like Vice and NYT?

This is something that, again, runs back for years, through at least the "Endfathersday" nonsense, which is due back in a week or two, by the way. We saw some people get pulled in through the various "-Gate" nonsense controversies (yes, including *that* one) and the freakouts over women and various minority groups actually getting their own movies (remember the people screaming about how the last Ghostbusters movie "ruined" their childhoods), and through incels as well. And the Nazi wannabes, the Richard Spencers and the like, would publicly say "Sargon of Akkad and Milo are useful idiots, they pull people in, and then we carry them the rest of the way."

And if you're still whining about their "free speech", rather than treating them as people who desire to create murderers and terrorists, then you have missed the entire point, even after 6-7 years of all of this snowballing.
 
Not quite. The "free exchange of ideas" on racism didn't really exist at that time. What changed the attitudes of the past was a relatively small minority of people agitating for change, organizing marches and protests, stating sit-ins and get-out-the-vote campaign, and building up enough momentum to convince elected officials to push through anti-discrimination and anti-segregation legislation, legislation which was actively opposed by the majority in many communities.

Said opposition was very often brutal and bloody, and many people died trying to achieve said equality. Sitting around talking about it didn't do it, people going out and getting themselves killed trying to make a change did.

Racism isn't countered much by "the free exchange of ideas", because there really aren't any ideas to be exchanged from the racist's point of view, there is only emotion and rationalization. What counters racism most strongly is exposure to and interaction with other ethnicities, where one can experience the humanity of others, instead of merely being preached at about it. Racism, despite the justifications given for it, is ultimately based on fear, and only countering that fear with experience and exposure has any real effectiveness.

If you listen to a lot of the former neo-Nazis, those who have turned their back on other hate groups, and embraced a more progressive and less hateful outlook, one of the key factors was circumstances forcing them together with the objects of their hate. Not by "ideas" happening to drift by them while they were ensconced in their echo chambers.

One who did not live through or closely study those times tend to forget that nearly the entirety of American society was an echo chamber of sorts. Very little dissent and free speech was actually tolerated if it countered the jingoism, red-baiting, racist fear-mongering that dominated American culture at the time. The various media production codes, the red-scare witch-hunts, neighbors suspiciously spying on neighbors, and so on. It took work and blood to get to where we are today, not whinging about "free speech" and censorship.




I think what people are failing to understand is that actions like Facebook banning racist, terrorist, and similar group is doing is breaking up those very echo chambers.

The "free exchange of ideas" is only possibly where ideas are exchanged. Social media echo chambers do not allow said free exchange, and those who are engaged in those echo chambers are not about to go seeking out other ideas.

When I was in my 20s, I very nearly ended up going down what we would now call an "Incel" rabbit hole. What prevented me from doing so was having people around who made the effort to call me on my BS, and verbally slap some sense into me; combined with going out and actually spending time with people, women in particular, and learning through experience how and why I was wrong.

If I had had one of the contemporary Incel communities to reinforce my anger and fear, then I very likely would have ended up far, far worse and never gotten myself out of the negative headspace that enabled it.

The same with my Evangelical religious-right upbringing. It was being forced out of that and into a wider society, where I could experience things from outside perspectives, that enabled me to turn my back on it.

That[/i] is why the far-right, religious terrorists, Incels, and other hate groups push so hard against allowing private companies like Facebook and Twitter and Reddit to remove their hate. They rely very heavily on having those echo chambers, having those communities reinforcing their fears and hatreds. They depend on those platforms for recruitment and reinforcement. That is why they have duped others into defending them as "free speech". They are not at all in favour of free speech. If you don't believe me, go hang out in one of these groups, try to "freely exchange" anti-racism, pro-LGBTQ, pro-feminism ideas. See how quickly you're shouted down and banned.

That's why religious groups are pushing so hard right now for "religious freedom" legislation that allows them to divorce themselves, and more importantly their children, from wider society. To create those echo chambers in charter schools, churches, businesses, and so on.

In order to learn and grow and "freely exchange" ideas, the echo chambers need to be broken up. Leaving them to fester and grow will not in any way serve any sort of "free exchange". As long as people are capable of finding sufficient numbers of others to reinforce their fears and hatreds, they are not going to be interested in "ideas" that oppose their own worldview.


Excellent post indeed.
You verbalised an important point that I failed to communicate.
Extremist groups need those echo chambers and removing them of both sucking people in and indoctrinating them at length.
 
It was an idiotic stunt that - as has been later shown - was an indicator of what the person who pulled it actually felt. It's a demonstration of the fact that "relax dude it's a joke" isn't a good defense.

Holy ****, someone -- on a sceptics site no less --, is actually defending arresting this guy. Frightening.
 
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Holy ****, someone -- on a sceptics site no less --, is actually defending arresting this guy. Frightening.

Who did that?

Did the guy break the law? Seems the judge thought so. Don't you believe in law and order?
 
So it's okay to tamper with other people's property in your view?

Only if it's a Nazi doing it, obviously. Leftists go to jail. Nazis are defended.

Meechan thought he was being clever. He trafficked in memes and trolling. His objective was to mask his white supremacists views from people who he could then fool into believing that the reactions to his shenanigans was what was worthy of condemnation, as opposed to his shenanigans themselves. The people fooled by this are on prominent display in this thread.
 
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Only if it's a Nazi doing it, obviously. Leftists go to jail. Nazis are defended.

Meechan thought he was being clever. He trafficked in memes and trolling. His objective was to mask his white supremacists views from people who he could then fool into believing that the reactions to his shenanigans was what was worthy of condemnation, as opposed to his shenanigans themselves. The people fooled by this are on prominent display in this thread.

Daily Mail headline:

Massive Hypocrite Who Made Vile "Final Solution" Nazi Joke Supports Deplatforming Of People Who Make Nazi Jokes
 
Alex Jones is a good example. Can you have some dude constantly blast professionally produced blood-libel against "the elite" into the public consciousness and then, when one of his fans shoots Gabrielle Gifford, throw up your hands and claim innocence?

In the egging nazi thread it is clear that yes that is exactly how these things are supposed to work.
 
To add to this:

You could say that the US had a "free exchange of ideas" during Reconstruction. We even had black Americans in both chambers of Congress. The counter wasn't so much "ideas" as it was white people marauding through black towns in the South, the abandonment of Reconstruction itself, the "Lily White Republican" movement, and eventually "Birth of a Nation" and the second KKK.

Proving that violence works.
 
You implied that teaching a pet to sieg heil is only a crime because he appeared on Nazi podcasts and meetings.

That is seriously illogical.

That's not how I read it. The "it's only a joke" excuse was shown to be false because of his Nazi meetings, endorsements, podcasts, etc.
 
A quick scan of his Wikipedia page, his associations with far right jerks, and his teaching his girlfriend’s dog to do a Nazi salute.

And the fact that is running as a candidate for the UKIP puts the "d" in douchebag.

Daily Mail headline:

Massive Hypocrite Who Made Vile "Final Solution" Nazi Joke Supports Deplatforming Of People Who Make Nazi Jokes


Yes, and we all know how accurate Flail headlines are, don't we!
 
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